no one will buy this camera at 9k
- Thread starter brianluce
- Start date
glassblowerscat
Well-known member
Why does every American think he knows better than all the marketing people big corporations hire to tell them what things should cost?
Clearly what you mean is that you won't buy this camera at $9000. Neither would I. But clearly that is just because it does not meet our needs well enough to justify that cost.
For someone whose needs are different, $9000 may well be a bargain, a price they would gladly pay to have the features they require.
Clearly what you mean is that you won't buy this camera at $9000. Neither would I. But clearly that is just because it does not meet our needs well enough to justify that cost.
For someone whose needs are different, $9000 may well be a bargain, a price they would gladly pay to have the features they require.
stephenlnoe
Well-known member
Brian,
The capabilities of this camera @ 9K now were closer to 30K just 2-3 years ago. All these cams that have been introduced since NAB push the gamut to the pro level, not prosumer. The HD-100 particularly is a pro camera as it doesn't have an auto mode or point and shoot characteristics. The Z1 and (I guess) the HVX will be point and shooters, a la handycam. It won't just be prosumers looking at these cameras but studio folk and high end users alike. Camera's will not get cheaper for a few years I'd be willing to bet because the technology is brand new and people are willing to pay. I know I am on the cusp of switching completely over to HD(V) and selling off the DV25 cameras.
A big part of the H1 price is the lens they say. Resfest will be here in Chicago in a couple of weeks and I'll see the HVX and H1 then. I've worked with the Z1/FX1 all year and I've worked with the HD-100's clips here for 2 or 3 weeks and finally got the dealer to give me the HD-100 for a day. As of right now, to me, the JVC HD-100 is the best of the bunch. It is priced at $5500 with $3400 for a deck.
What set's the Canon apart is genlock and HD-SDI and of course interchangeable lenses. I personally do not need genlock or HD-SDI but if I did the Canon is the only choice.
HVX ideology is nice. Form factor is interesting for being really mobile and getting some really intersting angles merely because of its shape. P2 is the only option though and I think an achillies heel for the camera except in one arena and that's news gathering. We'll see. I really think the HVX is being created to fill a void in Panasonics line because if there was no HVX there would be no competition for all the HDV offerings and Panasonic would be completely left out of the game. The smartest aspect of the design is adding the miniDV capability. I'm sure it's a hedge until more affordable P2 solutions are available.
Sony is due to revamp their Z1 and I can see them coming out with something like a DSR model that has the guts of the Z1. That probably will happen.
Anyway, the price I think is in line with the type of people there aiming these cameras at, a step above the needs of the DV25 group.
The capabilities of this camera @ 9K now were closer to 30K just 2-3 years ago. All these cams that have been introduced since NAB push the gamut to the pro level, not prosumer. The HD-100 particularly is a pro camera as it doesn't have an auto mode or point and shoot characteristics. The Z1 and (I guess) the HVX will be point and shooters, a la handycam. It won't just be prosumers looking at these cameras but studio folk and high end users alike. Camera's will not get cheaper for a few years I'd be willing to bet because the technology is brand new and people are willing to pay. I know I am on the cusp of switching completely over to HD(V) and selling off the DV25 cameras.
A big part of the H1 price is the lens they say. Resfest will be here in Chicago in a couple of weeks and I'll see the HVX and H1 then. I've worked with the Z1/FX1 all year and I've worked with the HD-100's clips here for 2 or 3 weeks and finally got the dealer to give me the HD-100 for a day. As of right now, to me, the JVC HD-100 is the best of the bunch. It is priced at $5500 with $3400 for a deck.
What set's the Canon apart is genlock and HD-SDI and of course interchangeable lenses. I personally do not need genlock or HD-SDI but if I did the Canon is the only choice.
HVX ideology is nice. Form factor is interesting for being really mobile and getting some really intersting angles merely because of its shape. P2 is the only option though and I think an achillies heel for the camera except in one arena and that's news gathering. We'll see. I really think the HVX is being created to fill a void in Panasonics line because if there was no HVX there would be no competition for all the HDV offerings and Panasonic would be completely left out of the game. The smartest aspect of the design is adding the miniDV capability. I'm sure it's a hedge until more affordable P2 solutions are available.
Sony is due to revamp their Z1 and I can see them coming out with something like a DSR model that has the guts of the Z1. That probably will happen.
Anyway, the price I think is in line with the type of people there aiming these cameras at, a step above the needs of the DV25 group.
Barry_Green
Moderator
The XL H1 will probably sell very well -- there's an excellent market for it, sports coverage for one. I could see NBC and CBS buying several hundred of these to use just for that purpose. Local broadcasters who want to go HD in a few years would probably also be a good target for XL H1's.
Nobody would buy this camera who doesn't intend to make money from it. But for those who do, it definitely looks like it has a unique niche carved out for it.
Nobody would buy this camera who doesn't intend to make money from it. But for those who do, it definitely looks like it has a unique niche carved out for it.
Antoine_Fabi
Well-known member
Yes,
I really like the features on the XLH1.
No doubt Canon makes good pieces of glass.
AND
...i am very curious about the new DSP inside the XLH1.
...maybe the "secret" is there.
The XL2 has already a very low level of noise and great black definition.
...the XLH1 might surprise us !
these R&D guys are fast !
I really like the features on the XLH1.
No doubt Canon makes good pieces of glass.
AND
...i am very curious about the new DSP inside the XLH1.
...maybe the "secret" is there.
The XL2 has already a very low level of noise and great black definition.
...the XLH1 might surprise us !
these R&D guys are fast !
videoteque73
Active member
What make you thing that this marketing people know better than you??
When I see the big errors a lot companies do, I ask myself who is in charge...
glassblowerscat
Well-known member
videoteque73 said:
Nothing in particular makes me think the people Canon has hired know better than I. I was simply pointing our tendency (especially on this forum) is to jump to the conclusion that the company is making a stupid decision when the more probable thing is really that they are making a decision that does not appeal to us.
Marketing people can be morons. But in Canon's case (as in the case of Panasonic with their P2), it is simply way too early to tell. When they fail to meet their sales goals, call them idiots.
kyle_doris
Well-known member
Barry_Green said:
took the words right out of my mouth Barry, i work for a local company here in NYC that does football related coverage for WCBS... the HVX and/or DVX100 really is completely useless to them as they need something cheap and reliable that they can do sports coverage with.
once the technology forces them to go to HD, you can be damn well sure this camera will be the one they buy. i just know it.
There's two ways to sell anything, try to grab market share or go after a new market, Canon have chosen the later. Their offering is still I think around half the price of the next step up to say Sonys XDCAM. It has all the features that you could ask for without pushing the price through the roof. Basically they've added all the widgets that one could ask for, the only other thing one would like is bigger CCDs but that immediately pushes the price / performance way, way up.
It made no sense for them to try to compete with the Z1 at that price point, it just can't be done and Sony could I'm certain still drop the price of the Z1 in response. JVCs offering is just sad and by the time you put useable glass on it you might as well buy the Canon. Panasonic I think are trying to please too many people that are actually only a very small part of the market, I wonder if they realise just how few people bought the DVX100 for it's progressive scan capabilities. I've met many DVX owners and lovers, a few tried shooting 25p and gave it away as a bad idea. I'm not saying it's a bad idea just that you really need to know what you're doing to get that 'look', sure for some it's do or die stuff but not for the vast majority of the market. What was the DVXs big selling point was it was a real camera, for once users weren't treated like idiots, that's what sold the thing over the 150.
Canon have taken the same tack, give the user full control and complete access to the signal chain.
It made no sense for them to try to compete with the Z1 at that price point, it just can't be done and Sony could I'm certain still drop the price of the Z1 in response. JVCs offering is just sad and by the time you put useable glass on it you might as well buy the Canon. Panasonic I think are trying to please too many people that are actually only a very small part of the market, I wonder if they realise just how few people bought the DVX100 for it's progressive scan capabilities. I've met many DVX owners and lovers, a few tried shooting 25p and gave it away as a bad idea. I'm not saying it's a bad idea just that you really need to know what you're doing to get that 'look', sure for some it's do or die stuff but not for the vast majority of the market. What was the DVXs big selling point was it was a real camera, for once users weren't treated like idiots, that's what sold the thing over the 150.
Canon have taken the same tack, give the user full control and complete access to the signal chain.
robroysyd said:
:huh:
I'd be quite surprised to find that the people who bought the DVX for its progressive capabilities are in the minority of purchasers.
kyle_doris
Well-known member
that's the major point. when i started working at this place, i mentioned the possibility of using DVX's for various things... because they key a lot of footage to NFL Films tapes... and matching the 24p to the 24 fps of the super16 NFL Films uses would look great.
the first thing they said to me was, what the hell is that? why do we need to change something that works? and lastly, can you put a 20x lens on that camera?
simply put, every camera has its purpose. the one thing i do feel the HVX has over the competition is a much broader level of versatility. the JVC and Canon cameras offer you the interchangeable lenses, but i think the fact that the HVX does so many different formats makes it more attractive.
the first thing they said to me was, what the hell is that? why do we need to change something that works? and lastly, can you put a 20x lens on that camera?
simply put, every camera has its purpose. the one thing i do feel the HVX has over the competition is a much broader level of versatility. the JVC and Canon cameras offer you the interchangeable lenses, but i think the fact that the HVX does so many different formats makes it more attractive.
Jaime Valles
Veteran
stephenlnoe said:
We need to stop spreading the idea that the ONLY way to record DVCProHD on an HVX200 is with P2 cards. It is NOT the only way. You can attach a 100GB Firestore drive for less than $2000, making the grand total $8000. Or, you can plug the HVX into a laptop and record directly into your NLE, or DV Rack.
P2 is the easiest, most hassle free way of recording HD on the HVX, but not the only way, by any means.
Sean Michael
Well-known member
It's too bad the Firestore (or similar device) can't be integrated into the HVX design. I'm trying to figure out how practical a Firestore would be for "on the go" documentary-style shooting.
Will the XL H1 cost $9k on the street, or is that MSRP? It might actually retail for less.
Will the XL H1 cost $9k on the street, or is that MSRP? It might actually retail for less.
Barry_Green
Moderator
$9k is retail. Street price will be set by demand; it might stay at $9000 for a while until initial demand is filled.
By asking whether the Firestore can't be integrated into the HVX design -- do you mean a physical integration? 'Cause that would be the bomb -- a 100gb hard disk that could slide into a slot like a P2 card. Or did you mean "integrating the Firestore into the workflow with a camera of the HVX's design" -- because of course you can do that. It can be mounted on the shoe of the camera, or worn on a belt pack; for documentary shooting (especially in 720/24p mode) you'd get a lot of footage on it...
By asking whether the Firestore can't be integrated into the HVX design -- do you mean a physical integration? 'Cause that would be the bomb -- a 100gb hard disk that could slide into a slot like a P2 card. Or did you mean "integrating the Firestore into the workflow with a camera of the HVX's design" -- because of course you can do that. It can be mounted on the shoe of the camera, or worn on a belt pack; for documentary shooting (especially in 720/24p mode) you'd get a lot of footage on it...
Jaime Valles
Veteran
Barry_Green said:
I'm sure it's only a matter of time before someone comes up with a DTE box that attaches to the bottom or side of the HVX and allows for true hard-disk swapping.