I'll take a wild stab at it (mind you, I haven't soldered anything together in ages). IMO, what happened is that Sony decided to make a series of cameras with essentially the same compact body. Once they decided to do so, their economy of scale production probably led them to put all of their A7 models into the same electronics scheme, i.e, most everything inside all models was wired the same way and, as long as it was 1080p, it all worked fine. Now, when they introduced internal 4K, they had to up the computational power in order to process a vastly superior amount of data and got backed into a corner because the internal layout of the camera wasn't especially conducive to the elimination and the passing of heat. Thereafter, they had the options that I surmised in an earlier post - a heat sink, a fan or some fairly expensive heat insulation (titanium, tungsten, ceramics, etc.) - which have their own drawbacks. And, I'll speculate again, they probably thought they found a reasonable solution to the problem. A7RII is heavier (625 grams vs. 485 for A7s) and slightly bulkier (127 x 96 x 60 mm vs 127 x 94 x 48 for A7s) and it almost does its job ... if your job is under 30m in duration. And, if it ain't, maybe there's a fix somewhere in its future.
Newsshooter: Sony A7RII overheats and shutdown after recording 4K for a while
- Thread starter Nicholas Natteau
- Start date
I did some more testing late yesterday running the camera from an external power supply with a battery adaptor... No difference. 27 mins before overheating in S35 and 48 mins (with a 1 min break) in FF. Indoor temperatures around 22°C.
i also noticed that on more than one occasion when recording shorter bursts that it went straight to overheat without first getting the temperature warning icon.
i also noticed that on more than one occasion when recording shorter bursts that it went straight to overheat without first getting the temperature warning icon.
paulcurtis
Veteran
Surely it's the sensor overheating, and unless you can take heat away from that then externalising the recording and the battery won't make that much difference.
The question would be whether there is any surface that you can use to extract heat from, like a heat pipe. If you flip up the LCD perhaps the surface behind there can be cooled.
But on balance Sony did what the market asked for, perhaps they should have restricted recording time upfront and in the marketing to avoid the disappointment over overheating though. If you need to record long sections then this isn't the camera for you. It's a shame that people only find that out *after* buying it.
There were some rumours floating around about a different form factor for the A7sII, i'd dismissed those as fake but thinking about it perhaps it's the form factor that isn't quite right for this amount of heat...
cheers
Paul
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
There is no way Sony could have known. They admittedly do not test their products thoroughly before hitting the market. Sounds like they do not put their products in the hands of real shooters before release. That's why they will remain king of the paper specs. Some call it "gotchas"... could just as easily called beta.
Curious how many times a unit can overheat before something gets fried permanently?
Curious how many times a unit can overheat before something gets fried permanently?
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It doesn't work like that - I'm 100% sure that it's got safe procedures that will shut it down at certain temperature to avoid any damage. It doesn't shut down because of mechanic overheat.
ReelWorksMedia
Well-known member
That makes sense. I have never actually had a camera overheat. Not even my RED cam shooting 5K for 3 continuous hours. Hopefully there is a failsafe there so they don't get close to doing any real damage.
That said, I wonder where product return feasibility falls here. If a product does not work as advertised, aka constantly overheats for particular users, that could be considered defective. Not that its my business. I don't currently own one...but almost did.
Matt Gottshalk
Resident Preditor
That is certainly a major engineering oversight.
Damn.
Damn.
It has to be remembered that these cameras are first and foremost stills cameras. They do have (seemingly) video modes that are in a different league to what has been seen previously in cameras of this type, certainly in terms of image quality - but first and foremost they are optimised for still photography. So as far as overheating goes, then whilst Sony may have been able to implement better cooling to extend recording times, then such may well have added size and possibly weight to the unit. In other words, compromised it as far as being a still camera......
If you want a camera primarily to use for video - buy a video camera. If such stopped recording due to overheating after about 30 minutes, then it would indeed be a cause to get upset, but video on these cameras needs to be seen far more as secondary - not a primary role.
That said, a major reason why DSLRs ever started to become popular was they offered a larger sensor than the previous norm with consequent dof characteristics if wide aperture lenses were used. What we are now seeing is technology having advanced such that it's possible to fully read/deBayer/scale a sensor of around 20Mp at video frame rates. It's currently in (primarily) stills biased cameras, but I expect to see it move increasingly into "true" video cameras. (The DVX200 is probably the first sign of such.)
It's only my guess, but I expect to see a camera based on the new RX10 front end, but in such a video camera body before too long. Such is likely to be more expensive than an RX10, yes, but not have limited recording time issues, have far better connectivity and ergonomics for video, and a better codec. Will anything like that happen, and if so, when? We'll have to wait and see.
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FWIW, a couple of years ago, Nikon patented a "heat" card. It was basically a removable metal object that was designed to absorb the heat buildup generated inside the camera. A couple of these cards, presumably, would do the trick - you pull the hot one out, insert the cold one in and thus keep up the rotation infinitely.
Erik Naso
Veteran
I remember the 5D had heat issues too.
What the A7rII can do is pretty impressive from I've seen so far. Yes it does concern me that it's overheating and for a B-cam that could be an issue if you want to just keep it rolling for long takes. Good old one man band!
The GH4 has been great for this on a One Man Crew for a project I shot. So it seems if you use an external recorder the A7rI wont overheat right? Not sure if that test was done but it shouldn't overheat. So if it doesn't that is a work around albeit an expensive one.
What the A7rII can do is pretty impressive from I've seen so far. Yes it does concern me that it's overheating and for a B-cam that could be an issue if you want to just keep it rolling for long takes. Good old one man band!
The GH4 has been great for this on a One Man Crew for a project I shot. So it seems if you use an external recorder the A7rI wont overheat right? Not sure if that test was done but it shouldn't overheat. So if it doesn't that is a work around albeit an expensive one.
Some people were asking for the test... Every little helps, as they say (or not in this case). Just like turning IBIS off or moving the monitor away from the body - not a lot of good.
Battery chemistry *does* generate heat as it discharges, and after using the camera for extended periods, the battery is one of the areas that gets hot. But I agree with you the sensor is going to be the main source of heat. As mentioned before, the underside of the camera gets hot, and personally I feel that would be a good area to target for supplemental cooling. If you remove the bottom cover you get to the lower metal chassis of the camera, above which is the sensor and IBIS assembly. Fabricating something that could act as a radiator to spread the heat, or a small fan to draw air through the base (with the addition of some holes) would be potential ways of keeping the camera cooler – at the expense of weather sealing.
There is less heat on the back-plate (behind the monitor) on this camera than previous models, because there is no heatsink in that location (because of the IBIS).
Another option might be a cool-pack, but that's a bit of a faff!
Maybe that was true in the past, but there's no reason technologically that stills and video cameras can't be in the same body. This is proven by some very successful cameras such as the GH4. Camera manufacturers are quite clearly blurring the lines, and ever since the 5Dii they've been very aware of the desire for small-formfactor large-sensor cameras. The A7S, for example, was very clearly optimised and aimed at video users.
Personally I love the convenience of having video and stills in one body. I love being able to make what I shoot look like moving photography. I love being able to change lenses depending on what I'm filming. I love being able to work with affordable tripods, gimbals, sliders, etc. I can travel lighter and I can work quicker. I find the experience more organic. And I love being able to spend the money I would have spend on a video camera on lenses and accessories that help support my creativity.
I know Sony are quite clear in the manual – this camera can overheat when filming 4K. However, I don't think it's unreasonable to be slightly disappointed by this, and to explore the options that don't necessarily involve buying a second camera.
True North
Well-known member
Unless Sony calls out a recording limit for internal 4K recording then it is unacceptable to have a new, properly functioning camera perform in this manner.
I would be shocked if Sony didn't test recording times prior to going to production. If they didn't test that aspect out on the Camera my guess is someone at Sony R&D is likely to lose a job over this.
What could have happened is that something happened during mass production that was different from the Pre Production models that they tested.
Soooo..keep your eyes on Sony Job postings, my guess is that there might be an opening soon in Sony R&D or Sony Production Management oe maybe even both
Real shame that this problem exists
I would be shocked if Sony didn't test recording times prior to going to production. If they didn't test that aspect out on the Camera my guess is someone at Sony R&D is likely to lose a job over this.
What could have happened is that something happened during mass production that was different from the Pre Production models that they tested.
Soooo..keep your eyes on Sony Job postings, my guess is that there might be an opening soon in Sony R&D or Sony Production Management oe maybe even both
Real shame that this problem exists
I think the key word there is "technologically".
It's quite true - or becoming increasingly true anyway - that in respect to imaging quality you're correct, and such as the RX10/A7R ii are probably a quantum leap forward in this respect.But ergonomically and in other respects it's less true. A "true" video camera may be expected to have features like XLR inputs, and smooth power zoom and a host of other such features are likewise expected, together with easy integration of accessories such as radio mic receivers, powering for on camera lights etc - and yes, not overheat after half an hours recording! But all such that makes it this good "true" video camera works against optimisation as a stills camera. Is likely to just make it bigger, heavier, more expensive - and all for no gain to the stills only user.
Yes, cameras such as the GH4 are successful - but such likewise can need extras to be used for video, depending on the application. In a way, that's acknowledged by Panasonic with the YAGH add-on box. The box itself is very far from ideal, but I do think is a step in the right direction. Build a basic unit, suitable out of the box for stills use and basic video, then have a bolt on to make it more of a true video camera. The trick may be to design the parts as a unit from the start - the YAGH just seems too much like an afterthought.
OK, this is a video centric forum, but I do think everybody does need to keep in mind these are stills centric cameras first and foremost.
Feel the need to reiterate what other people have said. This is first and foremost a stills camera. The heat issue is not a surprise to me in the least, considering what Sony is doing - full-frame IBIS 4K in a compact body - wow.
The heat could be a malfunction, this is a new camera and that possibility exists. Once enough users get a track record with it, we'll know if it's a design flaw or a reasonable limitation.
That being said, purely as a stills camera I am really interested in this. This, along with the Sony 90mm macro and the Zeiss 25mm might be the core of a new hiking kit for me. I would only shoot short videos in that scenario anyways. IBIS in a full-frame body is an incredibly attractive feature to me. If the A7SII offered 4K 24p 10bit (external) with a 20mp BSI and improve RS I would be all over that in a second over a A7RII.
Is 10bit external on the roadmap for Sony in the A8 series? What is likely from a technological standpoint? Is it a product differentiator to not cannibalize the cinema cameras?
The heat could be a malfunction, this is a new camera and that possibility exists. Once enough users get a track record with it, we'll know if it's a design flaw or a reasonable limitation.
That being said, purely as a stills camera I am really interested in this. This, along with the Sony 90mm macro and the Zeiss 25mm might be the core of a new hiking kit for me. I would only shoot short videos in that scenario anyways. IBIS in a full-frame body is an incredibly attractive feature to me. If the A7SII offered 4K 24p 10bit (external) with a 20mp BSI and improve RS I would be all over that in a second over a A7RII.
Is 10bit external on the roadmap for Sony in the A8 series? What is likely from a technological standpoint? Is it a product differentiator to not cannibalize the cinema cameras?
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NeedCreative
Well-known member
It's right in the manual. They knew; they warn you about it explicitly.
Most of my takes are under 15 min, give or take. It works fine like that. If I need more (e.g., b-cam for interviews to my FS7 is the most likely scenario), I will add my Shogun that I already have and it should run for hours no problem (I have not tested this yet but if the A7S is a good indication it won't be an issue because that worked just fine pumping out 4K forever).
I do see some false advertising here, though, as unlike the RX100 MK 4 where they clearly state the limitations in advertising, they do not as clearly with the A7RII. Even the RX100M4 can run for hours when outputting 4K over HDMI to a Shogun/Odyssey.
I will agree this is primarily a fantastic STILLS camera. The A7S with a recorder is the better video camera, image and reliability wise. Clean FF HD internally, record all you want (in 30 min chunks), etc. The FF 1080 is far, far cleaner than the A7RII's FF mode too.
But if you are willing to live with some limitations in not running long (15+ min?) takes... the A7RII is great too. Images match up to that A7S up to ISO 6400 at least in S35 mode, IBIS for run & gun/doco, good internal 4K recording, etc. I am selling my A7S because this camera gives me almost all of what that camera did with a recorder (I rarely shot over 12800, more often it was 3200 or less.). It also gives me the ability to shoot hand held, stabilized, with nothing added in 4K where the A7S could not... and give me some truly stunning poster-sized stills to boot.
This is a solid B-camera for 4K shooters, and an A-camera for stills photogs. It is not a "do everything" camera; none are.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Hey, hey, hey... I follow your concern, I share it. Your frustration too.
But.
Is there anyone here coming from film realm?
What about 10-minut limit?
That didn't stop Hitchcock to shoot THE ROPE... Hope everyone knows what I'm talking about.
Ah, but we are in 2015 so... We can't claim against the manufacturer this time, they didn't cripple the camera, no need for hacks and so on. Or should we? ;-) After all, what about backwards? Wouldn't it be better to expect SONY crippling the camera and whining for a Magic Lantern? C'mon... : D
But.
Is there anyone here coming from film realm?
What about 10-minut limit?
That didn't stop Hitchcock to shoot THE ROPE... Hope everyone knows what I'm talking about.
Ah, but we are in 2015 so... We can't claim against the manufacturer this time, they didn't cripple the camera, no need for hacks and so on. Or should we? ;-) After all, what about backwards? Wouldn't it be better to expect SONY crippling the camera and whining for a Magic Lantern? C'mon... : D
Back in 1973 or so, my mom and I went to see Lyndsay Anderson's "O, Lucky Man" (Malcolm McDowell, et al) in an old rundown movie theater in a Soviet countryside. The movie is listed as being three hours long but it was edited down to ~ 2 1/2, IIRC, by the sensors. The 2nd projection machine must have broken down, so the projectionist had to rewind each reel before feeding the subsequent 10 minutes into the only working unit. And then it became a four hour movie that lasted way past midnight.
Anyway, the Rope was about pseudo single/real long takes. Which brings me back to A7RII - it'll probably be fantastic for a low-no-mini-mighty budget film. Its BSI sensor allows for the minimal/practical lighting and its low price means that one could have two pieces for less money than one FS-7. And in short/multiple takes, one can easily have a multi-cam shoot too.