New User of a Rebel T2i - some video questions (Magic Lantern, Focusing)

J

jasonbrianmerrill

New member
Hello

I used to take shots with a Canon EOS 603 when I was a teen but my mother had quickly taken the camera away from me when she realized I had it (it was my uncle's who passed away and was a photographer for the post)...

Now I have this rebel T2i and it rocks but of course there is a learning curve beyond the normal Camera terminology that I am used to....

I am going to be shooting some video with the cam soon, for a documentary about the area in which I live, and I figure the T2i would be a great device to do this with.

I realize setting up a tripod, a zoom r16 and perhaps using my 50mm prime lens (I have this one and the 18-55 EF-S) might be good enough for an interview (or is it) where people are sitting still.

but is there ANY function that adjusts focus if the subject changes automatically? I dont mind the sound involved as I will just be dubbing over it with the zoom r16 mics.


I see there is some kind of focus assist thing with the magic lantern hack, which I have installed... and something called a "follow focus" device which looks interesting.

I am a beginner in this, please suffer my ignorance ;)
 
I am really busy and will give more of my 2 cents later, but please please please don't do a Documentary using the built in mics on the Zoom R16 as your source.
 
First, welcome to DVXUser!

There is no autofocus function on the camera. Even if there were, autofocus is generally a bad idea.

What ML offers is called peaking, and is a monitoring function that superimposes a red "glow" around the edges of items that are in perfect focus. The focus ring itself must still be controlled by you. A follow-focus can help, though it also requires a rail system to mount it with the camera. For a seated interview, it's not normally a big issue assuming that the person doesn't move back and forth in an abnormal manner and that you aren't shooting with a really shallow DOF (which you shouldn't be).

As for double-system sound, you say "dubbing it over with the Zoom r16 mics." Does this mean that you plan to use the cheap, built-in mics on the Zoom r16? That won't do you much more good than the camera's built-in mic. Your best bet is to have a mic on a fishpole (boom) or, for seated interviews, on a mic stand with boom arm mounted overhead. A wired lav can also be beneficial. The other challenge is the Zoom r16 itself, which only records 44.1kHz audio unless it is used as an interface for a computer. Your audio needs to be 16-bit/48kHz (ideally, recording at 24-bit/48kHz). The r16 was updated recently to the r24, which can do this, but there are other (better) devices out there in the same price range.
 
LIES, ALL LIES!

Yes, Magic Lantern DOES actually support some autofocus functionality in the recent versions. These guys are out of date!
People haven't made a big deal about it because its not always so practical to use, but IT DOES EXIST AND IT DOES WORK.

There are dozens of focusing tools in ML now, the peaking option that C2V mentions is only one of them (and not even what you are looking for, so I wouldn't count that one). "Follow Focus" also isn't what you are looking for, as that is merely the ability to control the focus of the lens from the buttons on the back of the camera (so you can walk around and not keep your hand on the focus ring the entire time, but rather do it digitally).
There is also "Rack Focus", "Trap Focus", and lots of other options in the menu that have the word "focus" in them, however what you are looking for is a menu that is merely called "Auto Focus". I believe it combines the Focus Assist algorithm (that tries to determine if something it too far vs too close) and the digital follow focus system to automatically increment the lens' focus in short bursts to adjust for slight changes in focus.

It supposedly works better with high quality motors in the AF lenses, like the USM options from Canon (ML's developer, A1ex, says it really is pretty bad on the kit lens), but I've tried it with my Tamron 17-55mm (non-VC), and I can attest that it DOES work ableit a bit noisy and slow.

I did a quick test out in my garage with my kids the other day, and found that when I changed focus from something very far to very close, it took a long time to auto focus properly (sometimes more than 10 seconds), and you can hear it slightly adjusting every half second or so with a constant "putt putt putt putt" noise coming out of the lens motor. However, if the focus is only changing slightly it probably works very well.
I would imagine this would be very useful for someone who wants to film themselves, and doesn't have anyone around to adjust the focus for them. I've never actually tried using it on a paid gig, as its use fullness is limited (and I prefer manual vintage lenses usually).

As for sound- I like the Sennheiser wireless lav system, been using it since my DVX and it just works for me. With the proper settings in Magic Lantern, you don't need dual audio at all. Just keep the camera's amps down as low as possible, and turn the preamp on the sennheiser up as high as you can without being in danger of overblowing, and your audio can come out fine in-camera with no need to sync in post (see the link my sig for my little test doing this).

Good luck!
 
dishe said:
LIES, ALL LIES!

Yes, Magic Lantern DOES actually support some autofocus functionality in the recent versions. These guys are out of date!
Click to expand...

This is the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that derails these threads from productive conversation into mud-slinging. Be careful. I don't mind that you disagree with me, but to come in here shouting like that and to call me a liar is not productive, and is not welcome.

dishe said:
"Follow Focus" also isn't what you are looking for, as that is merely the ability to control the focus of the lens from the buttons on the back of the camera (so you can walk around and not keep your hand on the focus ring the entire time, but rather do it digitally).
Click to expand...

On the contrary, a follow focus is a geared extension from the focus ring on the lens. Yes, there are models that can be controlled remotely, but a traditional follow focus allows manual control without keeping a hand directly on the lens. Further, it allows for a whip attachment for even less direct hold on the camera or camera rig. This has little to do with buttons on the back of the camera, or controlling digitally.

dishe said:
... however what you are looking for is a menu that is merely called "Auto Focus". I believe it combines the Focus Assist algorithm (that tries to determine if something it too far vs too close) and the digital follow focus system to automatically increment the lens' focus in short bursts to adjust for slight changes in focus.

It supposedly works better with high quality motors in the AF lenses, like the USM options from Canon (ML's developer, A1ex, says it really is pretty bad on the kit lens), but I've tried it with my Tamron 17-55mm (non-VC), and I can attest that it DOES work ableit a bit noisy and slow.
Click to expand...

And noisy and slow are exactly why this shouldn't even be considered an option. The motors that control DSLR auto-focus lenses are not designed to be slow and smooth like the auto-focus in traditional video cameras. More than that, auto-focus is generally a bad idea for use in the middle of a take. It can be fine for setting up a shot, or making a quick change, but used during something like an interview it is going to be painfully obvious if it shifts... DSLR, DVX, DigiBeta, Varicam: it will look bad.

Manual follow focus allows for a much more natural focus adjustment, and with no noise.
 
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* I think the OP was referring to a physical follow focus, not to a feature from magic lantern; a FF is a useful tool and can be mounted without rails (dfocus v3 with dmount), but it's least useful for a one-man-band, which is the case here, so I'd pass on that one if there's a tight budget (even though I've got a dfocus and I'm a one man band too)

* I wouldn't use magic lantern's autofocus while recording; all my lenses are manual, so I've never tested it, but I guess it's slow, and either has to be controlled manually ("focus now") or will just get lost from time to time, so medium depth of field plus focus peaking or 10x magnification sound like better options (thanks a lot Magic Lantern!!)

* as for sound: I use both a videomic plugged into a zoom H4n, and a $25 audio technica lav plugged into a H1 (no wireless troubles, thankyouverymuch); neither of these solutions would be good enough for a feature film, by miles (or thousands of dollars, which is how I think you measure these things...), but they sound great to my untrained ears
http://cheesycam.com/atr3350-on-zoom-h1-yongnuo-rf-602-flash-triggers/
 
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C2V said:
This is the kind of inflammatory rhetoric that derails these threads from productive conversation into mud-slinging. Be careful. I don't mind that you disagree with me, but to come in here shouting like that and to call me a liar is not productive, and is not welcome.
Click to expand...

Apologies for the tone. That was supposed to be a joke. Clearly, not everything you said was a lie, nor am I implying you are a liar. I meant only to imply that your information was out of date. Sorry if that didn't come out the way I intended.


On the contrary, a follow focus is a geared extension from the focus ring on the lens. Yes, there are models that can be controlled remotely, but a traditional follow focus allows manual control without keeping a hand directly on the lens. Further, it allows for a whip attachment for even less direct hold on the camera or camera rig. This has little to do with buttons on the back of the camera, or controlling digitally.
Click to expand...

I was referring to the "Follow Focus" option in Magic Lantern, which uses the buttons on the back of the camera to emulate the way one would use a follow focus gear. The OP had said: "I see there is some kind of focus assist thing with the magic lantern hack, which I have installed... and something called a "follow focus" ", so I immediately assumed he was asking about the focus options in ML. I just re-read his post, and I see that he was probably talking about the actual physical add on that is commonly used to assist focus (which incidentally is what the ML digital version is based on- you can see how I made that mistake).

And noisy and slow are exactly why this shouldn't even be considered an option.
Click to expand...

LIES! Er, um, I mean I disagree.
Its actually perfect for what the OP is describing... A sit down interview where the person might shift slightly, causing the focus to ever-so-slightly shift in a way that you probably wouldn't be noticeable enough to fix until post. That's actually happened to me- I was too busy monitoring audio that I didn't realize he had shifted his chair back a bit making him softer than he should have been. If I had this option on, the camera would have been constantly making minute adjustments to keep him in focus more of the time. It was only slow in my test because I tried to make a dramatic change of focus. This function only works in small spurts of change at a time, for the reasons you stated (these lenses aren't made for quick changes of focus, etc).
Again, supposedly with the right lens (an expensive USM one for example), it has been claimed to work very well. I can only vouch for my own experiences, so I can't say that's true or not.

The motors that control DSLR auto-focus lenses are not designed to be slow and smooth like the auto-focus in traditional video cameras. More than that, auto-focus is generally a bad idea for use in the middle of a take. It can be fine for setting up a shot, or making a quick change, but used during something like an interview it is going to be painfully obvious if it shifts... DSLR, DVX, DigiBeta, Varicam: it will look bad.
Click to expand...

This is the sort of thing you should really try/see for yourself before you make judgement calls. It appears that you are speculating now, and don't actually know how it works, what it looks like, or that it even existed before I mentioned it.
Its actually a lot better than you describe, although I admit I've never had to use on an actual paying project.

Manual follow focus allows for a much more natural focus adjustment, and with no noise.
Click to expand...
I'll give you that- Its true that it makes nosies. These little motor noises aren't so bad, though- sort of sounds like a clock ticking with my Tamron. Never tried it with the Kit, that might be worse. However, I've seen a demo with a USM, and it didn't make ANY NOISE AT ALL. So, its entirely possible to eliminate noise if that's a problem for you. As for natural adjustment... I'm not sure I agree with that either. I've seen plenty of manual focus operators accidentally overshoot a focus adjustment, and have to back it up to find the sweet spot. It happens all the time, especially when the operator is less experienced. This could help that.

Meanwhile, there ARE valid reasons not to use it, which include faster battery drain, possibly extra wear and tear on the focus motor, and the fact that it really only has limited use since any dramatic focus change takes too long to adjust. But that doesn't mean it shouldn't be an option, IMO. It is very much a useful option and I'm glad its there (and the OP should be allowed to take it into consideration).
 
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I have solution for the seated subject going in and out of focus on a 50mm. Use lights, set subject 10ft away, and set to f5.6. Then you have almost 3 feet of depth. Even better if you use your 18-55 and go down toward the 18. Set focus and worry about the 20 other things that can go wrong.
 
kgimedia said:
I have solution for the seated subject going in and out of focus on a 50mm. Use lights, set subject 10ft away, and set to f5.6. Then you have almost 3 feet of depth. Even better if you use your 18-55 and go down toward the 18. Set focus and worry about the 20 other things that can go wrong.
Click to expand...

LOL- sure, you can do THAT... but it also defeats some of the value of shooting with a DSLR in the first place (who doesn't like some tasteful bokeh?).
 
kgimedia said:
I am really busy and will give more of my 2 cents later, but please please please don't do a Documentary using the built in mics on the Zoom R16 as your source.
Click to expand...

they aren't too bad but I actually have some RE-20's and SM7's around. It's at the least far better than the cam's mic.
 
C2V said:
First, welcome to DVXUser!

There is no autofocus function on the camera. Even if there were, autofocus is generally a bad idea.

What ML offers is called peaking, and is a monitoring function that superimposes a red "glow" around the edges of items that are in perfect focus. The focus ring itself must still be controlled by you. A follow-focus can help, though it also requires a rail system to mount it with the camera. For a seated interview, it's not normally a big issue assuming that the person doesn't move back and forth in an abnormal manner and that you aren't shooting with a really shallow DOF (which you shouldn't be).

As for double-system sound, you say "dubbing it over with the Zoom r16 mics." Does this mean that you plan to use the cheap, built-in mics on the Zoom r16? That won't do you much more good than the camera's built-in mic. Your best bet is to have a mic on a fishpole (boom) or, for seated interviews, on a mic stand with boom arm mounted overhead. A wired lav can also be beneficial. The other challenge is the Zoom r16 itself, which only records 44.1kHz audio unless it is used as an interface for a computer. Your audio needs to be 16-bit/48kHz (ideally, recording at 24-bit/48kHz). The r16 was updated recently to the r24, which can do this, but there are other (better) devices out there in the same price range.
Click to expand...
like I said in my latest reply I am also ready to throw in a bunch of my mics that I already have (ranging from sm57s and i5's to ribbons, condensers, and some mics I many times see used in broadcast) I wont be able to buy new mics just for this project, however.

the mics on the R16 are surprisingly good for so many different purposes, I used them for a podcast recently, that I wasn't ready for... that's the thing, this is somewhat thrown on my lap in the last minute, and I don't have tons of cash to throw at new stuff.

as far as sample rates, it is of no concern, my software deals with that quite easily and transparently.

excellent info on what the "focus assist" ACTUALLY is. I was searching forever for it! thank you.
 
When I start video school in 1996 it was required that all students have a video camera. The only technical requirement was manual focus. Most students had 8mm and VHS-C cameras that focused with a wheel like the one on the T2i used for shutter and iso adjustment. I owned a Panasonic AG-195 VHS prosumer with a servo control, endless rotary, focus wheel. I learned how to focus manually with that, a BetaCam, and a Bolex. In the 15 years since then I have never used auto focus for video. In fact I can count on one, maybe two, hands the amount of times I have used auto gain/iso and almost all of those were going from inside to outside in one take with no Camera Assistant. I understand why it may be needed and should not be absolutely be ruled out, but if you can't follow focus manually on a seated person being interviewed with the camera on a tripod and ML installed then you should practice more. I also feel it should be pointed out that unless your talent has a Physical or Mental health issue that precludes then from sitting still a good Director should coach the interviewee to sit still as it will translate poorly on the screen. I also understand if you got a tweaked out Charlie Sheen in your seat you just run with it.

I am so guilty of shooting all day outside at f2 which is my fastest lens. I feel it is the wrong choice most of the time for a one camera interview. Yes depending on the content it could be the right decision. In my opinion, for most interviews, it is more of a B-Roll and 2nd cam thing.

Anyway to the OP congrats on your first post and welcome to DVXUser. What you may have learned already is each person here does thing slightly different. The number one thing to know about this site is you should consider information presented and make your own mind up as to the best course of action for you. You may be wrong but if you stick with it you will learn.
 
jasonbrianmerrill said:
like I said in my latest reply I am also ready to throw in a bunch of my mics that I already have (ranging from sm57s and i5's to ribbons, condensers, and some mics I many times see used in broadcast) I wont be able to buy new mics just for this project, however.

the mics on the R16 are surprisingly good for so many different purposes, I used them for a podcast recently, that I wasn't ready for... that's the thing, this is somewhat thrown on my lap in the last minute, and I don't have tons of cash to throw at new stuff.
Click to expand...

If you cannot buy, rent. There's a very, very large difference between broadcast and narrative sound work. What you see radio and TV announcers using will not suit the needs for on-camera dialog. You can get away with something like the RE20 for a VO, however.

The two basic tools are the short shotgun (mostly for exteriors/outdoors) and the small-diaphragm hypercardioid condenser (used for interiors/indoors). If you don't have a hypercardioid but you do have a small-diaphragm cardioid condenser, you can get away with that. Just remember that it needs to be as close to the interview subject as possible without getting into frame. For a seated interview, put the mic on a stand with a boom arm and place it overhead, within about 8" and aimed at the sternum.

The mics on the R16 may seem fine and dandy for you, and you may get away with them for a podcast, but they simply aren't going to suffice for what you're doing here. They will pick up too much room noise, and being built into a rather clumsy unit like the R16 you aren't going to get proper placement without some very uncomfortable rigging.

You may not need anything else, depending on what you have in your mic locker. If you don't have what you need and you cannot afford to purchase what you need, there are rental houses all over the country that have reasonable rates and will ship anywhere.
 
C2V said:
If you cannot buy, rent. There's a very, very large difference between broadcast and narrative sound work. What you see radio and TV announcers using will not suit the needs for on-camera dialog. You can get away with something like the RE20 for a VO, however.

The two basic tools are the short shotgun (mostly for exteriors/outdoors) and the small-diaphragm hypercardioid condenser (used for interiors/indoors). If you don't have a hypercardioid but you do have a small-diaphragm cardioid condenser, you can get away with that. Just remember that it needs to be as close to the interview subject as possible without getting into frame. For a seated interview, put the mic on a stand with a boom arm and place it overhead, within about 8" and aimed at the sternum.

The mics on the R16 may seem fine and dandy for you, and you may get away with them for a podcast, but they simply aren't going to suffice for what you're doing here. They will pick up too much room noise, and being built into a rather clumsy unit like the R16 you aren't going to get proper placement without some very uncomfortable rigging.

You may not need anything else, depending on what you have in your mic locker. If you don't have what you need and you cannot afford to purchase what you need, there are rental houses all over the country that have reasonable rates and will ship anywhere.
Click to expand...

I was not aware of rental options - I am kind of in a backwoods area here :)
 
I am not trying to push you one way or the other but unless you are in a hunting town in Alaska or outside the US then UPS, USPS or FedEx should deliver right?
 
If you can afford 89.00 and have a bestbuy near, grab yourself a H1 (ZOOM) iT produces damn good audio for the price. And of course proximity is always what will determine how well the recording is. Your better off using a cheap crappy mic close up than a great mic to far away. Well, in most cases anyway, but you get the point. Good luck with your docu. By the way what is the town your filming about?
 
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