FS5: "New tests show Sony FS5 macro-blocking and noise issues when recording 4K internally

I went into my local Sony dealer/distributor yesterday to get my hands on the demo camera before I made any decisions. I was having issues getting my Odyssey to work with the HDMI out so I tested with onboard LCD only. As per other user setups I selected PP6 which has Cine gama, in UHD. I then bumped the iso to 3200 and used the focus zoom to zero in on some lines to have a closer look. Immediately I could see the nasty blocking effect which is separate from the noise. That is when I tilted the camera up and down otherwise it looked normal until you start moving. Seemed better under panning. Once I went down to 1600 iso it was pretty much gone but still did notice a little. Then I switched to other gamma in UHD (didn't try them all!) and did not observe the same artifacts. Also clean in HD. Again these are results based off onboard LCD zoomed in so take that how you like. I didn't have a card with me to record a take and review in NLE at home more thoroughly. The sales reps said they haven't had any calls about this issue from the units that have gone out already but will be following up with Sony in the new year to see what they say. Speculating weather it is a hardware or software problem is something a Sony engineer can answer and I can't really believe everything some people out there are preaching. All I know is that this is a real bug and until I hear from Sony's mouth what they are going to do i'm holding off on placing my FS5 order.

The other thing that really bugs me besides this is the fact that when recording internally 4k and sending 4k out you lose the onboard LCD screen!?! If I'm in a situation that requires this setup for handheld use i'm boned. I'm really hoping this is also a firmware glitch and that the camera is capable of outputting everything at once. Makes me wonder about how the RAW upgrade will be implemented and the limitations if any then.

I've now started looking at just getting an FS7 instead which is a significant increase in cost but the amount of internal recording options makes me think twice. But that variable ND!!! Honestly it's probably the only thing making me still think FS5 besides the form factor.

Once I hear back from the dealer about what Sony says i'll share with the forum.
 
olof said:
OK I can now reproduce the problem reliable, after extensive pixel peeping and I found the best way to spot the problem.
Click to expand...

Olof, thanks for taking the time to do the testing. I know all too well how much time it can chew up.
I'll follow your settings and see if I can replicate the issue on my camera one of these days when I have the time. It's not a priority for me because I can't really see myself using any of the settings that would lead to causing it. But it's good to know it is there and how to avoid it.
Thanks.
 
Yes, really surprised that Sony didn't catch this when testing.

It's really stunning, the fact that they market the FS5 as a "handheld camera", "run and gun", but when you introduce any vertical motion the UHD image tears and falls apart.

I will add that in my tests, it shows up in all gammas, even slogs and rec709. My experience is that it's mostly visible in those gammas at lower exposure levels and higher ISO combinations (it's not gain noise though). So contrary to what others have reported, I've found that there are no gammas that are completely safe. The tearing artifacts just show up at lower iso's on the cinegammas.

Another note, if you always shoot 1600ISO and below on locked off shots then you'll be fine. But anything handheld or with movement at higher than 1600ISO in some gammas, and you'll have tearing and shimmering lines. It's really not an unusual scenario. Ever need to shoot handheld UHD at 3200ISO or higher on the FS5 (perhaps you do documentary)? Then you'll have this problem and it may wreck your footage.

I've been emailing a Sony tech with samples about this issue since December 18th. He was incredulous at first (as many on this forum have been) but quickly saw it as an issue when I sent him the clips. Unfortunately, the holidays have slowed this down quite a bit, but he assured me that he's been passing the info along to others at Sony and he's waiting for a response. It's a relief to see others reaching out to Sony and their dealers to get this fixed! Happy New Year everyone!
 
Last edited:
TheShooter said:
I went into my local Sony dealer/distributor yesterday to get my hands on the demo camera before I made any decisions. I was having issues getting my Odyssey to work with the HDMI out so I tested with onboard LCD only. As per other user setups I selected PP6 which has Cine gama, in UHD. I then bumped the iso to 3200 and used the focus zoom to zero in on some lines to have a closer look. Immediately I could see the nasty blocking effect which is separate from the noise. That is when I tilted the camera up and down otherwise it looked normal until you start moving. Seemed better under panning. Once I went down to 1600 iso it was pretty much gone but still did notice a little. Then I switched to other gamma in UHD (didn't try them all!) and did not observe the same artifacts. Also clean in HD. Again these are results based off onboard LCD zoomed in so take that how you like. I didn't have a card with me to record a take and review in NLE at home more thoroughly. The sales reps said they haven't had any calls about this issue from the units that have gone out already but will be following up with Sony in the new year to see what they say. Speculating weather it is a hardware or software problem is something a Sony engineer can answer and I can't really believe everything some people out there are preaching. All I know is that this is a real bug and until I hear from Sony's mouth what they are going to do i'm holding off on placing my FS5 order.

The other thing that really bugs me besides this is the fact that when recording internally 4k and sending 4k out you lose the onboard LCD screen!?! If I'm in a situation that requires this setup for handheld use i'm boned. I'm really hoping this is also a firmware glitch and that the camera is capable of outputting everything at once. Makes me wonder about how the RAW upgrade will be implemented and the limitations if any then.

I've now started looking at just getting an FS7 instead which is a significant increase in cost but the amount of internal recording options makes me think twice. But that variable ND!!! Honestly it's probably the only thing making me still think FS5 besides the form factor.

Once I hear back from the dealer about what Sony says i'll share with the forum.
Click to expand...

What you see on the LCD isn't what is going the cards, I have no idea what is going on with that LCD view (looks like heavy line skipping zig sags... its pretty bad) but not what goes to the card

As far as recording to the card, outputting to a recorder AND keeping the view on the LCD this isn't going to be an option, from what I have been reading the fs5 doesn't have the processor power for that. I don't really see it as an issue, If I go through the trouble of hauling a 7Q or Shogun around I am going to look at those screens

I really love the fs5 for what I do and so far haven't been able to see issues in normal footage but I do think the FS7 is a better value if you need a more robust codec, outputs, LUTs, waveform!..... I do get the blinking line artifacts in UHD Cine at 3200 and over when I tilt up and down quickly.
 
Last edited:
TheShooter said:
The other thing that really bugs me besides this is the fact that when recording internally 4k and sending 4k out you lose the onboard LCD screen!?! If I'm in a situation that requires this setup for handheld use i'm boned....

I've now started looking at just getting an FS7 instead which is a significant increase in cost but the amount of internal recording options makes me think twice.
Click to expand...

Exactly the same boat.
The "hope" was with the new firmware you wouldn't lose the camera screen or the external monitor..... but several suggested its a hardware limitation of the camera and it'll never be able to do it. The new firmware came out and...... Fail.... you lose the screen... Useless. 4K image issues that who knows can/ever will be fixed as well... Argg. Couldn't convince myself that 'it'll work out somehow' - Bought the FS7.
 
chappelldigital said:
Exactly the same boat.
The "hope" was with the new firmware you wouldn't lose the camera screen or the external monitor..... but several suggested its a hardware limitation of the camera and it'll never be able to do it. The new firmware came out and...... Fail.... you lose the screen... Useless. 4K image issues that who knows can/ever will be fixed as well... Argg. Couldn't convince myself that 'it'll work out somehow' - Bought the FS7.
Click to expand...

If you are sending 4k out (7q or Shogun) why on earth would you not use those screens to monitor?... they are infinitely better than the stock LCD Now If you need to feed to video village, clients, director or whatever what was you plan HDMI?? thats a scary connection I would want to convert that to SDI anyway (7q or Shogun can output via SDI and the 7q with LUT applied) .... but honestly video village, director, client monitors ect.... probably not the folks this camera is made for, wish I had those issues because I would be billing enough to easily solve them :) also there is a lan port I would assume there is someway to send an image that way but why bother when its so easy to run an SDI cable from your monitor/recorder
 
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and as a new fs5 owner obviously been a bit concerned. I haven't had much opportunity over the holidays to do any testing of my own. Can anyone give me a number of a post from this thread which describes what settings I need to use for a test or can someone else summarise here? I'll have some time in the coming days to give it a go.
 
mattjeh said:
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and as a new fs5 owner obviously been a bit concerned. I haven't had much opportunity over the holidays to do any testing of my own. Can anyone give me a number of a post from this thread which describes what settings I need to use for a test or can someone else summarise here? I'll have some time in the coming days to give it a go.
Click to expand...

Any PP other than 709rec, SLog2 and SLog3 in 4K at iso 3200 and up.

Just aim at a dark horizontal line with a light subject against it and tilt up and down. Even just at 4x-8x on the lcd you can notice it.
I aimed my FS5 at my tv since it sits against a white wall. I can see the blocking when I tilt up and down.

Cheers,
 
mattjeh said:
I've been keeping an eye on this thread and as a new fs5 owner obviously been a bit concerned. I haven't had much opportunity over the holidays to do any testing of my own. Can anyone give me a number of a post from this thread which describes what settings I need to use for a test or can someone else summarise here? I'll have some time in the coming days to give it a go.
Click to expand...

Don't worry too much. It did not appear in any of my footage I shot initially. I did a bunch of outdoor and studio shots like I normally do for a new cam, and I never spotted it.

I am very impressed by how nice the image is, in HD it rivals my FS7. And in UHD exposed correctly with a nice PP it is almost indistinguishable from my FS7 until you start to heavily grade the footage.

It was not until I started seeing these posts that I specifically tried to find the fault.

So I would say it is very rare for this to show up, but it is there and I bet it will be fixed by Sony at some point. Basically just go out and shoot the way you normally would and I bet your footage will be fine, like mine is. Actually I am really very happy with the FS5, and even though I have an FS7 I will use the FS5 as my Grab and Shoot and a s a B-cam to my FS7 for interviews etc.

So I think we can all calm down here and realize this fault is actually hard to find. The only footage I have found it in is UHD CineGammas at 3200 iso or higher, with slightly out of focus horizontal lines a bit under exposed and with the camera moving slowly up and down, it does not happen panning. And you will really only see it if you really pixel peep, it does not jump out at you, but it is there and should be fixed.

All the footage I shot except the specific footage to try to find this problem looks great.
 
sebmour said:
Any PP other than 709rec, SLog2 and SLog3 in 4K at iso 3200 and up.

Just aim at a dark horizontal line with a light subject against it and tilt up and down. Even just at 4x-8x on the lcd you can notice it.
I aimed my FS5 at my tv since it sits against a white wall. I can see the blocking when I tilt up and down.

Cheers,
Click to expand...
709 800%. It was there in 709 in my tests
 
Unfortunately it appears at all picture profiles. I'll post a sample tomorrow. Slog and rec profiles it shows at higher ISO's, but it's there.

edit: I own this camera. I love it, I have no reason to downplay or exaggerate this bug. But it's there, and if you shoot doc-style, or handheld narrative, it will be in all your footage in UHD at 3200 or 6400 (depending on your PP). If you want the FS5, I say buy it because this problem is too big for Sony to ignore completely, and it will likely be fixed eventually. But, it is by no means a rare or hard to find glitch. It's very apparent if you shoot and master to 4K (but also visible when downsampling from 4K to HD)
 
Last edited:
I didn't see it at 3200 in Slog and REC709 (800%).
I also own the camera and want to shot for 4k. I shoot run and gun car reviews. I don't do cinema so I am not expecting a cinema camera but if I see it in all the 4K PP then I'll be disappointed.
 
chappelldigital said:
I think the main complaint is not that 8-bit highly compressed footage can end up having some issues, especially when pushing it etc... but more what you're getting for the price vs what else you can get for less money.

I haven't seen complaints like whats being seen on the FS5 when it came to the A7sii or A7rii (maybe I'm wrong?) Those cost less, have a more 'consumer codec', but don't have the complaints. The FS5 is meant to be a more heavy featured 'video' camera, that delivers more than the 'non-video-camera' products... so when thats what its meant for, and how its been promoted... and sold at the price that reflects that, yeah people are going to ask what the heck is going on there.

Sure an 8-bit heavily compressed codec will break apart if you push it. It seems to be breaking apart quicker than it does on cheaper cameras offered by the same company, which I would certainly have an issue with as well.

My deal-breaker was the ridiculous output.. or lack of ..on the FS5.. but thats another thread.

I think complaining about the 8-bit XAVC-L on a $5600 camera performing worse than the XAVC-S on a $3000 camera is justified. Definitely correct me if I'm wrong on that, but would certainly be annoying for anyone in that scenario I would think.
Click to expand...

Anyone with an FS7 will tell you how noisy the camera can be even at its base ISO and operators are more likely to reach for faster lenses, SBs and lighting long before reaching for the gain adjustment. I think Sony has employed a fairly aggressive noise reduction circuitry in the FS5 which has produced an "odd" look with high gain but had they left it out they may well be currently being slammed by the same people for releasing a horrendously noisy camera.

I don't think the complaints have anything to do with XAVC-L vs XAVC-S it's the noise reduction "look." The FS5 is a professional level camera and it is intended to be operated as such but in some circles it has become accepted practice to assist exposure with gain and some cameras have been clean enough to get away with it but the FS5 (or FS7 for that matter) is not one of them. I used to use the gain on my FS100 to equalise the variable aperture zoom lenses but nothing approaching the levels of gain that some of these "FS5 test" videos have shown.
 
It's pretty clear to me the main obstacle in the path towards problemfree images from the FS5 is Sonys (bad) choice of SDXC cards instead of XQD and that the FS5 is nothing else than a FS700 in new clothes. The shoehorn just squeezed to much shiiit into that camera.
 
Sony bills the FS5 as a "run and gun" camera, and says it's largely aimed at documentary shooters. In controlled environments you can avoid ramping up gain, but for "run and gun" documentary shooters that's not an option, and shooting at 3200 ISO in a Cine mode is completely realistic. That's why this is such an issue.

I'm confident that Sony can tweak the NR to find a middle ground though. It's just not there yet.
 
Nirv said:
I don't think the complaints have anything to do with XAVC-L vs XAVC-S it's the noise reduction "look." The FS5 is a professional level camera and it is intended to be operated as such but in some circles it has become accepted practice to assist exposure with gain and some cameras have been clean enough to get away with it but the FS5 (or FS7 for that matter) is not one of them.
Click to expand...

Well I don't think anyone cares particularly wether its L or S... but more that the more expensive 'video' camera (as opposed to stills that can do video) comes out with more visual issues.

Sony's Developers' Interview video goes on and on about "Grab and Shoot".. and what that means, how its annoying to need tripod, monopod, etc. So "Grab and Shoot" certainly doesn't mean .. Grab the camera.. and all my lights.. and lets go! So higher ISO's are fair-game for how they are saying its meant to be used. We're not talking 10,000 ISO.. but surely 3200 isn't unreasonable.
I'm sure anyone would agree this camera should be a wedding-shooters dream. I've done 81 in the last two years. I've shot @ 3200 or higher at every one of them.

Grab and Shoot doesn't mean corporate interviews with lights, and needing to set up a director/producer monitor.. because thats not what this camera is meant to do...so it can't do it. (and is the reason why its not the right camera for me.. I need both.. damnit! haha).

Its aimed at people who aren't doing controlled situations, getting it as it happens, and upping the gain should be within reason when when the lower end mirrorless still cameras can do it without as much 'artifacting'.
 
Last edited:
maxjw said:
If you want the FS5, I say buy it because this problem is too big for Sony to ignore completely, and it will likely be fixed eventually. But, it is by no means a rare or hard to find glitch. It's very apparent if you shoot and master to 4K (but also visible when downsampling from 4K to HD)
Click to expand...

As a 12 month FS7 owner who loves his camera, I would add quite a bit of skepticism to this. Unless I missing something somewhere... I am not getting any feedback from Sony or dialogue about my camera or it's performance. They did send out a survey (here in US) about 2 months after my purchase... but that is the last time they've been interested in any input from me. I am a member of the Sony community forum as well.... but there is very very little feedback from Sony to users on that site as well. So it's impossible to know if they are really listening at all...
So my advice.... be sure the instrument you buy does what you want it to now... not in some promised future fw update.... perhaps if we all did this... manufacturers would slow down - just a bit - their rush to deliver new products that may have some "bugs" to iron out down the road
 
markfpv said:
As a 12 month FS7 owner who loves his camera, I would add quite a bit of skepticism to this. Unless I missing something somewhere... I am not getting any feedback from Sony or dialogue about my camera or it's performance. They did send out a survey (here in US) about 2 months after my purchase... but that is the last time they've been interested in any input from me. I am a member of the Sony community forum as well.... but there is very very little feedback from Sony to users on that site as well. So it's impossible to know if they are really listening at all...
So my advice.... be sure the instrument you buy does what you want it to now... not in some promised future fw update.... perhaps if we all did this... manufacturers would slow down - just a bit - their rush to deliver new products that may have some "bugs" to iron out down the road
Click to expand...

True, good point.
 
Just to add my two cents: I am an owner and I can say without hesitation that this camera at normal db levels is very clean. Actually, the last couple of days, I have been shooting at 0db and 9db and I have a hard time telling the difference. If I look closely, sure, but really, I can't get over how clean it is. Not saying that this issue doesn't exist, just saying that for my use, thus far, the image is great. Coming from an EX1r and AF100, it is so much cleaner. Gorgeous footage. And the ergonomics are terrific. Same concept as the AF100, just much better implemented. Just wish I could use center scan and make use of the MFT lenses...
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top