FS5: "New tests show Sony FS5 macro-blocking and noise issues when recording 4K internally

Yes, I'm getting the same issue. I'm wondering if it's not codec related though because even though the image gets less noisy through the uncompressed HDMI, the strange tearing and static-like pattern is still visible on edges. My personal guess is that it's poorly implemented noise reduction or some other image processing problem.

One way to hint at whether it's a codec issue, or some sort of image processing issue would be to test the XAVC-L codec on the FS7 under the same circumstances. If the issue is the codec, we should see the same issue on the FS7 in XAVC-L considering the same sensor, bitrate, etc.

I've reached out to Sony about it as well with my own tests. Was told I probably won't hear back until after the holidays.
 
BeeHop said:
This is unacceptable ! In Australia the FS5 costs $8500 ($9500 with a Speedbooster) This 4K macro blocking mess is a worry at this price for a camera....
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I think unacceptable is a strong word - but I would certainly consider another strong word, unprofessional. Unprofessional for Sony to release the camera with what is starting to look like a very serious encoding fault in its professional "xdcam" line up (which is a bit of a joke as it won't even record in the xdcam codec - even though it has the monica on the body!).

As you point out, it is not that it was a cheap product. I am a VERY tolerant person but this is now starting to grate....What matters now is how Sony decide to rectify this.

We will all be watching, especially those of us who bought the FS5.

If they have not already run a mile, I would strongly advise anyone who has a FS5 on order to actively consider cancelling until more is known about how this will pan out. It is a terrific HD cam - I love it for that (and bought it primarily for that use) but as things stand it is currently looking pretty much unusable in real world QFHD/4K.

Buyer beware.
 
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maxjw said:
One way to hint at whether it's a codec issue, or some sort of image processing issue would be to test the XAVC-L codec on the FS7 under the same circumstances. If the issue is the codec, we should see the same issue on the FS7 in XAVC-L considering the same sensor, bitrate, etc.

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It's there in FS7 recording even in XAVC-I. XAVC-L and I variants are ugly codecs.

The macroblocking is not as prevalent in FS7 world as I doubt many use XAVC-L in 4K, I always shoot XACV-I but if you pull a key with XAVC footage you're in for a shock.
 
I'm seeing this issue both internally AND EXTERNALLY on all cine curves. Log 3 / Log 2 / and ITU709(800%) all see to behave normally – albeit pretty noisy AND not ideal for an 8bit codec.

I recorded this to ProRes 422 over HDMI to the PIX-E5H. It's a bit rough and ready, but you can see the macro blocking / edge smearing is there externally too... Not Good!


https://vimeo.com/149915169
 
so in summary.. the Fs5 is not a broadcast level 4K camera.. but at 8 bit 420 is it that surprising.. but I agree totally that Sony probably should have just left it as an HD camera.. or made more of the fact that the "4K" was a bit of a wing and prayer bonus .. there just has to be some line in the ever cheaper pricing of "professional" camera,s .. the Fs5 is not much more than a high end Mattbox and set of filters.. !.. an F55 is not an F65..an FS7 is not an F5.. and a Fs5 is not an FS7.. ?
 
Nirv said:
It's there in FS7 recording even in XAVC-I. XAVC-L and I variants are ugly codecs.

The macroblocking is not as prevalent in FS7 world as I doubt many use XAVC-L in 4K, I always shoot XACV-I but if you pull a key with XAVC footage you're in for a shock.
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You know what? You're right. I just looked at some old FS7 footage and sure enough there is odd macro blocking and artifacts on edges.... from the Fs7 (in Cine EI). However.... it's much less noticeable than on the FS5 due to having so much more bits to deal with (240, 10 bit 422 in 4k/24 vs 100 8 bit 420 for the FS5). But yes... it's there. It looks like the FS5 just magnifies what is wrong with XAVC.

Still, some of the artifacts like the smearing on edges are extreme and I don't see that on the Fs7 unless I am extraordinarily pixel peeping.
 
That is the best example I have watched, some of my test are in SLOG 2 and 3 because I just assumed (not sure why) that would show issues the most, and a couple were rec709... I really could not get the issues to show themselves (just normal things I would expect in an 8bit UHD file this small) but after playing around in the cine gammas its clearly there and it looks bad, and the cine gammas are what I would actually shoot in for UHD. Now the big question can it or will it fixed? I really only need an HD cam but punching in and out of the UHD clips was a pretty big bonus and really help push me over the top for this camera.
 
I just filmed some stuff in my house this evening of my daughters using slog2 at the native 3200 and I have to say it looks pretty decent. I cropped in a few hundred percent and I don't see much of that nasty stuff. I didn't use my external recorder either and just recorded internally.
 
I don’t think the edge streaking issue is XAVC related. The smearing edges show up in the uncompressed HDMI feed (though there is less grain noise). XAVC bypassed altogether exhibits the same issue with edges on the FS5.

Try it on a FS5 in a Cine mode at 3200 or higher. Shoot a slightly underexposed area with some contrast (it gets even worse when it's a slightly out of focus) and use the focus mag button to punch in on it while panning up and down. The spiky streaks should be clear. Same goes when output to a 4k HDMI monitor.

It doesn’t show up in certain modes like Slog3 which also makes it sound like it has to do with camera image processing like noise reduction, rather than from codec compression. So while I agree that there's unpleasant macro blocking going on because of the XAVC codec, there seems to be something else going on with the way the FS5 is handling edges because it appears just as much outside the XAVC codec.


Does anyone have an example of this spiky smearing happening in vertical pans in one of the Cine modes on an FS7 XAVC-L?
 
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Donny 123 said:
so in summary.. the Fs5 is not a broadcast level 4K camera.. but at 8 bit 420 is it that surprising.. but I agree totally that Sony probably should have just left it as an HD camera.. or made more of the fact that the "4K" was a bit of a wing and prayer bonus .. there just has to be some line in the ever cheaper pricing of "professional" camera,s .. the Fs5 is not much more than a high end Mattbox and set of filters.. !.. an F55 is not an F65..an FS7 is not an F5.. and a Fs5 is not an FS7.. ?
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Woah! woah! woah! That's a ridiculous excuse! There is ABSOLUTELY no reason why 8bit 4:2:0 shouldn't be able to produce a clean and artefact-free image. There are plenty of cheaper cameras that can record UHD or 4K WITHOUT edge-smearing or weird blocky artefacts. The A7Rii / A7Sii / GH4 / NX1 all record 8bit 4:2:0 UHD @100bit (or less in the case of the NX1) without showing any signs of edge-breakup at 3200ISO! Just because the FS5 happens to be cheaper than the FS7 / F5 / etc. etc. doesn't let it off the hook from doing what it is sold to do!

There is no acceptable reason why this camera should be sold with this problem.

FS5 Test 1.jpgFS5 Test 2.jpg
 
maxjw said:
I don’t think the edge streaking issue is XAVC related. The smearing edges show up in the uncompressed HDMI feed (though there is less grain noise). XAVC bypassed altogether exhibits the same issue with edges on the FS5.

Try it on a FS5 in a Cine mode at 3200 or higher. Shoot a slightly underexposed area with some contrast (it gets even worse when it's a slightly out of focus) and use the focus mag button to punch in on it while panning up and down. The spiky streaks should be clear. Same goes when output to a 4k HDMI monitor.

It doesn’t show up in certain modes like Slog3 which also makes it sound like it has to do with camera image processing like noise reduction, rather than from codec compression. So while I agree that there's unpleasant macro blocking going on because of the XAVC codec, there seems to be something else going on with the way the FS5 is handling edges because it appears just as much outside the XAVC codec.
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This is exactly my experience. You've summarised the problem perfectly. (Thank goodness I'm not the only one)
 
AlexLeith said:
There are plenty of cheaper cameras that can record UHD or 4K WITHOUT edge-smearing or weird blocky artefacts. The A7Rii / A7Sii / GH4 / NX1 all record 8bit 4:2:0 UHD @100bit (or less in the case of the NX1) without showing any signs of edge-breakup at 3200ISO! Just because the FS5 happens to be cheaper than the FS7 / F5 / etc. etc. doesn't let it off the hook from doing what it is sold to do!

There is no acceptable reason why this camera should be sold with this problem.
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I think this nails it. As I wrote in an earlier post, I think anyone who was considering buying a FS5 needs to consider very, very carefully - especially if they have one already on order.

We are just moving into the holiday period so it may take time for Sony to respond - but clearly this is beginning to look like a major issue with the FS5 and one that none of us who bought it would have expected. Ball's now in Sony's court - let's see how they sort this out.
 
If these artefacts are happening the HDMI then it's obviously not the XAVC-L codec and would probably point towards an image processing f*ck up. I've just shot some test shots on my FS7 in XAVC-L at 4k and there's absolutely no edge break up like those images above, in fact the footage is clean as a whistle.

I have experience with buying broken Sony cameras in the past and the only way you get them to notice is if you make a stink with your dealers and on as many forums as possible. When Sony released the HVR-V1 HDV camera it had a broken 25p mode. I was one of the first in the UK to own it, actually I had it before official release. I noticed the problem and went onto another popular camera forum and posted my findings and ended up being banned as they didn't want any dissent of Sony on there. My dealer was horrified by the images and suggest I was doing something wrong and initially didn't want to know. I did eventually get a grovelling apology as Sony acknowledged the fault and recalled all the cameras and they updated the firmware but couldn't fix the underlying problem. It was a turkey.

Make sure you get as much evidence together as possible and either get your money back from your dealer or hound Sony on social media until they acknowledge the fault and fix it to your satisfaction. The FS5 is not a cheap camera and you should have every expectation that the FS5 image is as good as the FS7 shooting XAVC-L 4k.

Good luck in getting it sorted.
 
Thanks Nirv -- great advice. I think us FS5 owners and potential owners will need to start a bit of a campaign to get sony to acknowledge and hopefully remedy the problem. I'm currently waiting to hear back from Sony after speaking with tech support about the issue and emailing over some tests.

Maybe we can reach out to Alister, or get newshooter to write a follow-up article that talks more specifically about this edge smearing problem since this is a different beast than the compression issues.
 
Are the screen shots above taken with the electronic ND filter on or off? I'm just wondering if it has something to do with the edge tearing.
 
andykwilkinson said:
I think this nails it. As I wrote in an earlier post, I think anyone who was considering buying a FS5 needs to consider very, very carefully - especially if they have one already on order.

We are just moving into the holiday period so it may take time for Sony to respond - but clearly this is beginning to look like a major issue with the FS5 and one that none of us who bought it would have expected. Ball's now in Sony's court - let's see how they sort this out.
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I had one for about 3 weeks and returned it to the dealer. Buyers remorse.. So I took a $1400 hit, and sold it back to the dealer. Very happy that he worked with me. I then decided to place an order for the canon c300 mark ii, it should be arriving next week.. I had the original c300 and really liked it, but I got this bug in my head that I wanted 4k so I sold it.. I loved the size and handling of the fs5 though, thats why I originally purchased it. I sure hope sony fixes the problem somehow for everyone who has one..
 
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I was 99% sure I was going to go for an FS5 after selling my C100.
After waiting for the new firmware, and still being crippled by not being able to properly use a monitor, and now all of this.... I bought an FS7 yesterday.
Doesn't seem like the FS5 should have 4K in it. Seems more to 'deal with' than an A7sii or similar. And FS5 would be too expensive to only do HD.
 
chappelldigital said:
I was 99% sure I was going to go for an FS5 after selling my C100.
After waiting for the new firmware, and still being crippled by not being able to properly use a monitor, and now all of this.... I bought an FS7 yesterday.
Doesn't seem like the FS5 should have 4K in it. Seems more to 'deal with' than an A7sii or similar. And FS5 would be too expensive to only do HD.
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I think the FS5 UHD is really good for what it is, I can't get this stuff to show up in normal shooting I had to try.... anyway congrats, after reading your post about the client monitors, and if the size isn't a factor I think you made the right call.... I love my FS5 but feel like the FS7 is the better value, the media cost stings a bit but it will come down
 
Thanks RayB
Definitely wanted the FS5 - It would certainly be a better choice for all the weddings I do (the A7s will be.. tedious.. to say the least I suppose, heh). The clear-image zoom on that rocker would be pretty amazing... So useful on the A7s.. can only imagine how nice that must be!
 
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