New Sony HDV 1080i

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Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

Ranger,

i think we're saying the same...

...that was precisely my point...

...dont expect the new HDV camera to be better than what we see from the Big Boys...
HD is not the "end of the world"

but Barry's point is that the market could change from now...and it is possible that the new HDV camera is "that" much better...

we'll see

agree  ;)


...and yes the SDX900 is superior to the DVX, no doubts...but they are two SD cameras.

BTW, i sincerely hope this new camera will be awesome.
...and i also hope that Panasonic new HD small camera will be even better...
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

Here's an article that came out last month discussing why many consumer electronic companies, especially in Japan, purposely cripple their lower end products.  Interesting read, but I don't necessarily accept or agree with the business methods used.  Call me old fashion, but the market should drive the train, not vice versa.

http://www.dv.com/columns/columns_item.jhtml?articleId=47902521
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

Wait a minute. I thought the new Sony HDV cam didn't have a 24p mode. According to camerainfo.net, there is one.

http://www.camcorderinfo.com/content/Sony-HDR-FX1-First-Impression-Camcorder-Review.htm

"CineFrame24 and 30 Mode. This is an attempt by Sony to cater to those independent filmmakers seeking the "film look" with a 24 frames-per-second progressive scan shooting mode. Although the HDR-FX1 does not have a true 24P or 30P filming mode, the CineFrame24 and Cineframe30 modes replicate many of the motion artifacts and the "look" of 24P and 30P, respectively. The CineFrame 24P mode on the HDR-FX1 is enhanced over the 24P effect mode that some users will remember from Sony's DCR-PC350 because it does a 2:3:2:3 pull-down instead of a 2:3:3:2 pull down. When I tested the HDR-FX1's Cineframe24 mode, I did not see the same jerkyness that I found on the DCR-PC350. That is, although any 24P mode will have a certain jitter to it, the DCR-PC350 had an odd "beat" to its jitter that was unnatural. I wasn't able to identify any such "beat" on the HDR-FX1, and the footage looked noticeably better. I think that for the majority of users, the CineFrame24 mode will do a fine job of giving you that 24-frames progressive scan look, while still of course delivering HD resolution -- something the Panasonic AG-DVX100 and the Canon XL2 can't do!"

So what gives?

Peace
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

it's not 24p, it is 24i and is also not being captured at a true 24fps, it is just dropping 1 out of 5 frames.
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

[quote author=scharky link=board=XL2;num=1094548720;start=135#143 date=10/08/04 at 11:58:49]it's not 24p, it is 24i and is also not being captured at a true 24fps, it is just dropping 1 out of 5 frames.[/quote]


I see.

Dumb Question, sorry....

What is the difference between 60i and 30i or 24i and 24p?

I thought 60i = 60 frames interlaced giving you 30 frames. So wouldn't that mean 30i = 15 frames or 24i = 12 frames? ???


Peace
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

60i and 30i are the same thing.   IMHO 30i is the proper term since it is a frame rate , and you are recording 30 frames per sec.. then  the "i" indicates its interlaced recording.    someone somewhere sometome started calling it 60i..and its  caught on.. but  it means 30 frames per sec  interlaced.. you have 60 fields per sec.. but thats not a FRAME rate..its a FIELD rate.   .. i dont know, maybe they wanted to designate how many times in a sec the image is updated. but its just dumb IMHO cause when you say 30i you shold know that  it made up of 60 interlaced fields to make 30 frames.  just like if i say 24p i mean 24 frames per sec made up of 24 full progressive frames taken 1/24 of a sec apart..  24i would mean 24 interlaced frames per second made up of 48 fields per sec.. and 30p is 30 full progressive frames per sec.. taken 1/30th of a sec apart(again ..i have to ask why someone decided to say 60i instead of 30i)  .  

the sony doesnt even do 24i every 1/24th of a sec. it shoots regular 30i, which means the frames (composed of 2 fields taken 1/60th of a sec apart) are taken every 1/30th of a sec. and then it just drops  every 5th frame. so every 5 frames you will skip 1/30 th of a sec to the next frame.

..its completely worthless for doing real 24p work. if someone wants to work with true 24p they should work with equipment that can do it from aquisition to output.. its just silly to start running things through 800 filters and software packages to try and make your kids tricycle perform like a lamborghini.. sure converting 30i to 24p has its time and place.. but i wouldnt choose it as a main method of aquisition by any means unless it was a last resort.
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

thanks loser. ;D

I've just seen 60i and 30i mentioned, sometimes in the same sentence and I just got confused.

As far as the Cineframe24 and 30 mode in the Sony HDV camera, according to the reviewer, she was pleased with the results.

I haven't seen it, I'd like to judge for myself.


Peace
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=XL2;num=1094548720;start=135#136 date=10/07/04 at 19:41:14](when's the last time you saw an IBM desktop PC?)
[/quote]

I was pounding away on one of those until about two months ago . . . ;)
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

I rarely, if ever, disagree with IAL, but I will this time.

The nomenclature that is used pretty much throughout broadcasting is now "60i/50i", and about the only place you ever hear of "30i" (which is referencing the same thing) is in Avid circles. The "30i" nomenclature drives me nuts, because it continually confuses people into thinking that PAL is 25 "frames" per second, whereas it's not, it's 50 fields per second.

In the olden days of video they referenced frames which are probably more accurately called "field pairs", since they're not really "frames" at all, they're just convenient groupings of odd and even fields into pairs. A "frame" of film, and a "frame" of progressive-scan video, are basically the same thing, but a "frame" of interlaced video is entirely different, it's two relatively unconnected fields, shot at different points in time, and arbitrarily called a "frame" so that... um, I don't know, why IS it called a frame? Just so Premiere could edit on frame boundaries and keep the odd/even flow accurate?

All camera manufacturers have taken to naming their shooting rates based on the frequency of image sampling, so you'll never see Sony or Canon talking about "30i" when they mean interlaced NTSC video, they call it "60i" because there are sixty updates per second, with the "i" meaning that those updates are interlaced.

I think the mistake was made long ago when someone started referencing odd/even field pairs as "frames", and now they're trying to correct it, with a frame being a "frame" and a field being a field, and a pair of fields not being called a "frame". Hopefully with the advent of HD and progressive-scan video, we can exterminate the "30i" terminology entirely and adopt more accurate nomenclature. It just makes more sense.
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

Jeez, Barry.

You're better than an encyclopedia. ;D

Yea, when I look at it, it is only Avid that has the 30i, 30p, 24p options.

Peace
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

john hudson has said the real truth,it´s a very smart opinion and refresh my head of so many words about this camera or the other, the video, the film, what´s better. a question: among the different 35mm camera you can find also differences in image quality , right?
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

[quote author=Barry_Green link=board=XL2;num=1094548720;start=135#148 date=10/08/04 at 13:52:14]I rarely, if ever, disagree with IAL, but I will this time.

The nomenclature that is used pretty much throughout broadcasting is now "60i/50i", and about the only place you ever hear of "30i" (which is referencing the same thing) is in Avid circles.  The "30i" nomenclature drives me nuts, because it continually confuses people into thinking that PAL is 25 "frames" per second, whereas it's not, it's 50 fields per second.

In the olden days of video they referenced frames which are probably more accurately called "field pairs", since they're not really "frames" at all, they're just convenient groupings of odd and even fields into pairs.  A "frame" of film, and a "frame" of progressive-scan video, are basically the same thing, but a "frame" of interlaced video is entirely different, it's two relatively unconnected fields, shot at different points in time, and arbitrarily called a "frame" so that... um, I don't know, why IS it called a frame?  Just so Premiere could edit on frame boundaries and keep the odd/even flow accurate?

All camera manufacturers have taken to naming their shooting rates based on the frequency of image sampling, so you'll never see Sony or Canon talking about "30i" when they mean interlaced NTSC video, they call it "60i" because there are sixty updates per second, with the "i" meaning that those updates are interlaced.

I think the mistake was made long ago when someone started referencing odd/even field pairs as "frames", and now they're trying to correct it, with a frame being a "frame" and a field being a field, and a pair of fields not being called a "frame".  Hopefully with the advent of HD and progressive-scan video, we can exterminate the "30i" terminology entirely and adopt more accurate nomenclature.  It just makes more sense.[/quote]

Which gets REALLY confusing when you start talking about 29.976 frame rates . . .
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

ha! i dont mind being disagreed with barry. it's very unlikely that I would have a more correct answer than yourself ;) i learn from you all the time, and i like it that way. :)

..anyhow i agree that the image updates per second is important to note in the naming convention ..the only reason that i tend to lean towards 30i is because of what david said.. i just have it burned in my mind that NTSC runs at 29.976 FPS. so the connection with "2 fields interlaced together = one frame" is just hardend in my head.

..but i suppose whats more important is the fact that using 60i on aquisition
AND playback .. the image is being updated 60 times per sec.. the TV doesnt really only show 30 interlaced frames per sec.. rather it DOES show 60 alternating feilds per sec. so in all subjectiveness to whats happening in reality, it should be called 60i.


...from what youve said i see that i shouldnt take my beef with the naming convention of interlaced video.. becuase it is accurate.. but rather the confusion that comes from 60i NTSC video being called 29.976 fps.. it would only be so if it were a progressive scan TV playing progressive material. i suppose the whole screwup there came from the issue that they didnt used to have video cameras, and all material was converted from film frames.. so they would speak about things in terms of how the original frames were being edited and played back..so they saw NTSC as capeable of transferring and displaying 30 FPS (29.976 for electronic reasons) through 60i fields per sec.. even though the electronic way of displaying them didnt really use frames at all. ..then when the video cameras were introduced the original aquisition was not in whole frames anymore.. instead it was actually aquired in 60i feilds per sec. so your not even representing a true full frame at any point. but the 29.976 FPS still stuck. so we started to associate 2 fileds = one frame.. just like it was with film.

BUT.. to make matters worse. if its a transfer from film.. or conversion of progressive scan video to 60i ..once again we ARE watching 30 frames played back through 60i feilds per sec.
... so 60i from a progressive scource still seems to make sense to me to note that your displaying 30 frames broken up into 60 fields per sec. to show 30 frames out of 60 interlaced fields rather than the original 30 progressive frames. of course the display does still update the image every 1/60th of a sec with every field. but the actual motion rendering is only being updated with every 2 fields which representing a complete original frame from one point in time.

so what am i saying?!! uhhh.....who knows!? :P.. heres what i learned as i typed this all out.

#1. i agree with barry that 60i video should be called 60i. cause its aquisition of motion is updated though one field every 60th of a sec.

#2. i think that in some ways progressive material shown on a NTSC display should be called somthing different from 60i ..ala the old 30i ..just to set it apart.. im not bent on it at all or anything ;), but i think it would allow us to differentiate between material which is progressive in origin, and represents full frames vs material which is 60i in its aquisition nature, and does not represent full frames at any point. so we would convert 30p to 30i to show it on a non progressive ntsc display. if its shown progressivly ..its still 30p. but how do you account for things which are partially progressive like the DVX's 24p modes which contain some interlaced frames in the progressive material... who knows.. and isnt it confusing to have 30i and 60i cause it sounds like 30i has 1/2 the fields per sec.. but it would really only have 1/2 the updates of motion per sec. its because of things like this that its easier to blanket the whole thing with 60i. maybe call it 60i30.. :P whatever..lol


#3. that i really dont mind what people call it as long as i can understand what they are talking about :)
 
Re: New Sony HDV 1080i

It is a confusing subject, I agree -- and hey, I'm learning stuff from you all the time too!

So, about the 30P on 60i thing -- to me it gets even worse, because you never really see just 30P when on 60i. Because of the way the fields work, you'll see a full frame, then two split frames, then a full frame, then two split frames... Try this as an example: set the camera in 30P, shoot a picket fence, and pan horizontally across it. Watch it on your TV and you'll see gazillions of interlace line artifacts! Even though the footage was shot progressively, it'll still display interlaced, and so a full 50% of the time you'll still be seeing a field from one frame combined with a field from another frame. So you're right, 30P displayed on 60i will be different than 30P, and different than 60i.

Play that 30P picket-fence footage back on a computer monitor, or a 60P HD display, and it'll be rock-solid, no interlace artifacts. But on the 60i monitor you'll see lots of fine-tooth "comb" artifacts. Sigh.

Death to interlace! :) Film had it right in the first place, with discrete frames, and the 720P side of HD has the right idea, if you want fast motion updates shoot at 720P/60...
 
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