New RED camera?

hscully said:
Danilo, there is no product yet. All there is is a hint of a new product that portends to be for the lower budget end of the RED cameras. That's it. The rest is speculation,wish lists and pecadillos. It is either fun or frustrating depending on how you participate. Like any "teaser" it is meant to keep you tuning in.
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Here's how I would do "low end", if I were Red (and I once was but that's a different story). I actually suggested it in the Kinimini thread but in reverse. So, yes, I'd take an existing camera (it could be anything from Kinimini to FS5), pull out the guts, slot them into a Red body, tweak the rest to whatever level I'd want it and then sell the model as a Red camera.

So, let's take FS5 as a "source". At some point, it will have Raw out via G12 SDI, so the ability to pick up the Raw signal is there. The tweak would then lie in adding the Raw recording in-body or, at worst, Raw-to-Red Code in-body recording, with the separate external or modular connection. You figure Sony's OEM price here is $2,500- $3,000. Red obviously has the expertise and the components to take the rest toward the end. Voila.
 
dustylense said:
Uhhhmm, my computer chops up red footage just fine in either Fcpx or premier just fine. No rocket needed.
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+1 any laptop worth it's weight will edit Redcode quite easily.

The Rocket is an outdated piece of hardware unless you need full resolution 6k editing in realtime.
 
Was just on a trip and the main filmer was using a 2013 Macbook with 6K dragon files just fine, also on the higher end my Titan X just blows though anything even 6K with lots of layers.
 
I'd be interested if they do something to change up the image. It still looks way too digital in a strange way. 4k means nothing these days, it's the baseline and everyone makes a 4k camera. Redcode is simply a codec and not even actual Raw. I mean... seriously, something has got to change big time, especially in the pricing of their overpriced mag drives and accessories if they're going to attract people who could simply buy an a7S II (or a whole range of other Sony 4K cams), URSA mini, KineRaw or even Panasonic 4k cams. I just don't understand the appeal.
 
The media is expensive, no doubt. I think that's going to cause a problem if the new RED hopes to be a viable replacement for some of the cameras you mention. I said it above, but the Dragon footage is so different from the MX footage. Check out the last Taylor Swift music video http://youtu.be/IdneKLhsWOQ a really good example of the softer higher saturation stuff goin on with the skin tones and the OLPFs on the Dragon sensor or the trailer from Martian http://youtu.be/Ue4PCI0NamI which is much sharper, less saturated sci-fi grade. It really depends. It's a pretty flexible system when it comes to images. What's not to like?

I don't think Redcode is a codec. It's not a video codec anyway and it is raw, just compressed raw that is lossless but still needs to be debayerd... pretty sure.

Uh oh... the Kool-Aid might be kicking in ;)
 
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L1N3ARX said:
Redcode is simply a codec and not even actual Raw.
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No, it's much better than raw. If RED has got one thing going, then it's their well supported, flexible codec. You get to decide how compressed it will get, but it's always at 12bit.

Who can possibly want raw data in any practical scenario? Specialised projects, maybe, but for anything where the camera is actually rolling it's more hassle than benefit.
 
Some of the stuff in this thread shows people don't actually use RED cameras or deal with the footage. It's a lot of unsubstantiated biases towards different camera systems that I find annoying. It's okay to not like the picture from a camera it's another to bash for things that you have never experienced first hand or that has now been updated.

And to be honest all this cameras make great images that allow you to make them look how you want. It would be great if we could cut all the bull.
 
L1N3ARX said:
I mean... seriously, something has got to change big time, especially in the pricing of their overpriced mag drives and accessories if they're going to attract people who could simply buy an a7S II (or a whole range of other Sony 4K cams), URSA mini, KineRaw or even Panasonic 4k cams. I just don't understand the appeal.
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It's not like any of the cameras you mentioned, have any wider reputation in the higher end market.
Sure, you can shoot a commercial with a GH4, but in the real world, it's either Alexa or RED.
Why would I pimp out some Sony/Pana/XYZ DSLR with an external recorder and risky HDMI connectors, if I could get a RED for around the same? (If "4KforAll" proves to be the real deal...).

All RED needs to do is repackage their "old" pre-Weapon tech (I don't mean refurbish), limit the new camera's options (like non upgradable sensor, no PL, only 4K, less modularity, whatever)
and the"ambitious market" could start using a (by now) proven and tested RED workflow.
And when the time comes, all those user are very likely to rather rent a Weapon, instead of other high end choices.
Canon did good with the castrated C100, Sony just added the FS5 and Volkswagen clearly doesn't have a problem selling the Golf with hp from 86 to 300.
 
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L1N3ARX said:
I'd be interested if they do something to change up the image. It still looks way too digital in a strange way.
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That's a fine opinion.

L1N3ARX said:
4k means nothing these days, it's the baseline and everyone makes a 4k camera.
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Wonder who started that trend?

L1N3ARX said:
Redcode is simply a codec and not even actual Raw.
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Well, it is. It is compressed raw. As a shooter you can choose the amount of compression. But what is recorded in a R3D file is undebayered untouched sensor image data.

L1N3ARX said:
I mean... seriously, something has got to change big time, especially in the pricing of their overpriced mag drives and accessories if they're going to attract people who could simply buy an a7S II (or a whole range of other Sony 4K cams), URSA mini, KineRaw or even Panasonic 4k cams. I just don't understand the appeal.
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If anything REDMAGs are cheap for what they do - which is work every time and at every resolution and compression the camera can throw at them. If you don't understand the appeal of a RED system thats fine, it sounds like it isn't for you or your clients. But when you have clients that demand some of the best images you can get, I think the appeal will be apparent.
 
Spartacus said:
All RED needs to do is repackage their "old" pre-Weapon tech (I don't mean refurbish), limit the new camera's options (like non upgradable sensor, no PL, only 4K, less modularity, whatever)
and the"ambitious market" could start using a (by now) proven and tested RED workflow.
And when the time comes, all those user are very likely to rather rent a Weapon, instead of other high end choices.
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red is already selling their old pre weapon tech in 4K...scarlet is still available...8K for just the brain, which means not even a mount or way to record anything on it or even power it.....and these are just sitting there....i honestly don't consider scarlet a 4k camera....on paper yes, but with the compression.....epic is a 4K camera.....much better compression ratios and 5K which, once compressed down still provides real 4K resolution....and epic starts a 15K
DR on the mysterium-X is 12 stops on a good day....again: at higher compression rates this drops as well and it is not considered a low light monster by anyone....
so re-packaging the old sensor into a new body must be more expensive and won't make people happy....
smaller chips are cheaper to produce so maybe they will simply use a 4K area chip of their dragon or weapon tech in a stripped down body, that way they can keep firmware, color,....all the on the same level and keep looking forward.....
problem with that is that dragon has such highly compressed rations that every test i have seen comparing epic and dragon at similar compression ratios show pretty much no increase in actual detail and resolution....5K vs 6K is not that big a jump to begin with.....
 
William_Robinette said:
If anything REDMAGs are cheap for what they do - which is work every time and at every resolution and compression the camera can throw at them. If you don't understand the appeal of a RED system thats fine, it sounds like it isn't for you or your clients. But when you have clients that demand some of the best images you can get, I think the appeal will be apparent.
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so does every SD card to thumb drive....
the red system can definitely make a lot of sense and can deliver amazing and some of the best images available....no question....
but this discussion is about a lower range RED which has been promised before (4K for 4K) and to me seems even harder to get done today.....with so many cameras providing 4K (we don't have to go into how real or how good that 4K is, no question about that either) and red seemingly having chosen to compete at the highest end (weapon) rather then strengthen their mid range which now is high end...mostly because of so many other solid 4K solutions at much lower prices....
 
Interesting comments on Reduser where Jarrad is saying really respects BM for what they are doing in cameras & software and isn't afraid to take them on and that can only mean on price vs features.

Be be interesting to see how this shakes out.
 
Surf it Mike said:
Interesting comments on Reduser where Jarrad is saying really respects BM for what they are doing in cameras & software and isn't afraid to take them on and that can only mean on price vs features.

Be be interesting to see how this shakes out.
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where is this post?

Just exciting times.
 
Paul schefz said:
red is already selling their old pre weapon tech in 4K...scarlet is still available...8K for just the brain, which means not even a mount or way to record anything on it or even power it.....and these are just sitting there....i honestly don't consider scarlet a 4k camera....on paper yes, but with the compression.....epic is a 4K camera.....much better compression ratios and 5K which, once compressed down still provides real 4K resolution....and epic starts a 15K
DR on the mysterium-X is 12 stops on a good day....again: at higher compression rates this drops as well and it is not considered a low light monster by anyone....
so re-packaging the old sensor into a new body must be more expensive and won't make people happy....
smaller chips are cheaper to produce so maybe they will simply use a 4K area chip of their dragon or weapon tech in a stripped down body, that way they can keep firmware, color,....all the on the same level and keep looking forward.....
problem with that is that dragon has such highly compressed rations that every test i have seen comparing epic and dragon at similar compression ratios show pretty much no increase in actual detail and resolution....5K vs 6K is not that big a jump to begin with.....
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What??? The new Scarlet is the Dragon sensor. It shoots 5K FF at 24 fps. I don't think that's correct for the MX sensor but the Dragon gets 16 stops and rolls off beautifully on the high end. There's an Epic Dragon. There's not an Epic and a Dragon. As for the resolution, whatever. I haven't even seen anything I shot with my RED in 4K yet. Take it easy. They have actual engineers working on this stuff. I'm thinking they know what they are saying your varied experience notwithstanding.

Look, I get it. Some people don't like REDs. OK, but if there's a new one coming that people can affordand they can make their business work with it, it's a good thing for anyone who wants to consider it... or not. Jeez.
 
3K for $3K - been there done that - got burned. No RED for me. I ponied up for an Axiom Beta. We'll see how that shakes out. Huge risk, I know, but that's my choice. Red burned a lot of bridges when the pulled the rug out from under drooling fans. They only build cameras for 'professionals' and that ain't us. Too bad, so sad.
 
KurtF said:
3K for $3K - been there done that - got burned. No RED for me. I ponied up for an Axiom Beta. We'll see how that shakes out. Huge risk, I know, but that's my choice. Red burned a lot of bridges when the pulled the rug out from under drooling fans. They only build cameras for 'professionals' and that ain't us. Too bad, so sad.
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I was extremely disappointed too that the original 2/3" 3k format Scarlet never got released. But it was the original Red One that sparked my interest in shooting Bayer raw for motion. They picked their market niche and are doing very well with it. If they made a camera that fit within my budget range I would still consider one.

Very pleased with my 2k Digital Bolex so far. Wouldn't trade it for 4k anything in its price range that I have seen so far.
 
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