FS7: New firmware for the FS7 will allow you to bake in gain/offset in Cine EI
- Thread starter starcentral
- Start date
moldcad
Veteran
Well - tbh, if the variable/auto ND works in CineEI, that'd be enough for me as far as exposure automation is concerned (speaking theoretically as I have the original FS7 mk1, so no variable ND either
). Auto-shutter is something I hate using, even though sometimes I do with my A7Rii (like when I went for taking stills but decided to shoot some video, not having my external ND filters with me). BTW, I also hate Auto Iris in Custom mode - auto exposure changes the FS7 does look so different than the natural, human eye's reaction to changes in light amount! For this reason I only use One-Push AI (or AF, for that matter). Which leads to another wish of mine: while I understand the reason for AI not working in Cine EI - it simply infuriates me that One-Push AI becomes inactive, as well There is no reason for taking it away in Cine EI mode - and having gotten used to it in Custom, I miss it in Cine EI a lot!Piotr
Auto shutter in EI mode.. ? why on earth would you want that.. let alone in EI mode.. Fs7 is not meant to be a prosumer camera..
starcentral
Veteran
So as it turns out, the new feature does not work the way I had suggested or alluded too. It is not just baking in the compensated offset when over exposing, it is doing something similar but different.
You do end up losing overall DR when you improve your signal to noise ratio by using the new feature.
Alister explains it best
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2018/06/f...7m2-released-new-iso-change-in-cine-ei-added/
You do end up losing overall DR when you improve your signal to noise ratio by using the new feature.
Alister explains it best
http://www.xdcam-user.com/2018/06/f...7m2-released-new-iso-change-in-cine-ei-added/
Well, very interesting and not at all the way it was initially explained to me. I was given the impression, as I had written, that it was baking in the over (or under) exposure.
Alistair notes that this is actually changing the sensitivity of the sensor. Presuming that to be the case, I agree that the feature might be something users would wish to avoid. Rate the shot at whatever EI you chose and compensate in post with a LUT.
Ned
Alistair notes that this is actually changing the sensitivity of the sensor. Presuming that to be the case, I agree that the feature might be something users would wish to avoid. Rate the shot at whatever EI you chose and compensate in post with a LUT.
Ned
Doug Jensen
Carbonite Member
Auto Focus in EI mode ? why on earth would you want that.. let alone in EI mode Fs7 is not meant to be a prosumer camera.. This is always the same kind of answer ( this is not professional to use auto shutter or auto focus or auto white balance) my answer is i will be happy to have thoses options in cine ei if needed ! like variable nd filter in Fs7 II but i have FS7 I, i have to say i never use auto fonctions but sometime i have to go back in custom slog3 mode to activate thoses tools............. activate auto fonction doesn't mean you aren't professional at all if you know what you are doing. Don't you think it is better to have thoses options if needed ? no ? and please don't tell us thoses tools are for prosumer please.
cyvideo
Veteran
Well I think I’ve got my head around it now. After doing a test shoot using this new Cine EI Rec Out mode this is how it’s working for me.
With the new function enabled regardless of which EI ISO you use if your exposure / WFM / ISO levels are the same the resultant clip levels will be the same. For example in each ISO compensation mode if you set your whites at say 60 IRE each clip shot with say 2000, 1000 and 800 ISO offset have exactly the same levels when dumped on the timeline. For the editors all clips using whatever offsets look almost identical on the timeline. Where there is noticeable difference of course is in the noise levels. As would be expected the 800 clips having by far the lowest noise levels followed in turn by the 1000 and 2000 ISO clips.
Previously as we know from experience each clip at 2000, 1000 and 800 ISO when dropped on the timeline have three different IRE levels. Obviously the 1000 and 800 clips look high so we adjust them back down to the desired levels. After LGG corrections have been applied to the high offset clips, in this case the 1000 and 800 ISO clips they will end up close to your 2000 clips in IRE levels but with substantially lower noise levels. That’s assuming you are happy in the first place with your 2000 ISO clip levels.
On our test shots I was able to apply an adjustment node then a 3D LUT to the 2000 EI Rec Out clip and just copy those attributes to the 1000 and 800 EI Rec Out clips without any further adjustments, or minimal at best. These settings could then be applied to the conventional 2000 EI clips with no further adjustments. When the same grade levels were applied to the conventional 1000 and 800 EI clips the standard level LUT applied correctly as one would expect but timeline LGG adjustments had to be made to the 1000 and 800 clips to bring them in line with the 2000 EI Rec Out and the conventional 2000 EI clips.
After comparing, with highly blown up samples, all clips whether EI Out Rec clips or conventional EI offset clips that had been adjusted back down in post I really couldn’t see any noise level differences ISO for ISO with what was done in camera or on the timeline. Either way we are trading off some of the high end as we shoot with lower offset ISO’s so each workflow does end up with diminishing dynamic range
From an editors point of view regardless of how often the camera op changed the new EI Rec Out offsets as long as he/she kept their exposures fairly consistent the editor would see consistent levels clip to clip. The only give away being that some clips will have lower noise levels. Just as you would see on the timeline after making adjustments to clips that were obviously rated at the lower ISOs of 1000 and 800 ISO without the EI Rec Out firmware.
I think I will try this new approach out on the next LOG shoot just so there are consistent levels between clips when they land on the timeline. As regards the diminished dynamic range when graded for a 709 display I really find it hard to see any major difference. For me where there is an observable difference is in the noise levels. I will nearly always trade of a stop at the top for observably quieter backs and lower noise levels. New EI Rec Out 800 it will be.
Am I missing something or does anyone else have a different experience?
Chris Young
With the new function enabled regardless of which EI ISO you use if your exposure / WFM / ISO levels are the same the resultant clip levels will be the same. For example in each ISO compensation mode if you set your whites at say 60 IRE each clip shot with say 2000, 1000 and 800 ISO offset have exactly the same levels when dumped on the timeline. For the editors all clips using whatever offsets look almost identical on the timeline. Where there is noticeable difference of course is in the noise levels. As would be expected the 800 clips having by far the lowest noise levels followed in turn by the 1000 and 2000 ISO clips.
Previously as we know from experience each clip at 2000, 1000 and 800 ISO when dropped on the timeline have three different IRE levels. Obviously the 1000 and 800 clips look high so we adjust them back down to the desired levels. After LGG corrections have been applied to the high offset clips, in this case the 1000 and 800 ISO clips they will end up close to your 2000 clips in IRE levels but with substantially lower noise levels. That’s assuming you are happy in the first place with your 2000 ISO clip levels.
On our test shots I was able to apply an adjustment node then a 3D LUT to the 2000 EI Rec Out clip and just copy those attributes to the 1000 and 800 EI Rec Out clips without any further adjustments, or minimal at best. These settings could then be applied to the conventional 2000 EI clips with no further adjustments. When the same grade levels were applied to the conventional 1000 and 800 EI clips the standard level LUT applied correctly as one would expect but timeline LGG adjustments had to be made to the 1000 and 800 clips to bring them in line with the 2000 EI Rec Out and the conventional 2000 EI clips.
After comparing, with highly blown up samples, all clips whether EI Out Rec clips or conventional EI offset clips that had been adjusted back down in post I really couldn’t see any noise level differences ISO for ISO with what was done in camera or on the timeline. Either way we are trading off some of the high end as we shoot with lower offset ISO’s so each workflow does end up with diminishing dynamic range
From an editors point of view regardless of how often the camera op changed the new EI Rec Out offsets as long as he/she kept their exposures fairly consistent the editor would see consistent levels clip to clip. The only give away being that some clips will have lower noise levels. Just as you would see on the timeline after making adjustments to clips that were obviously rated at the lower ISOs of 1000 and 800 ISO without the EI Rec Out firmware.
I think I will try this new approach out on the next LOG shoot just so there are consistent levels between clips when they land on the timeline. As regards the diminished dynamic range when graded for a 709 display I really find it hard to see any major difference. For me where there is an observable difference is in the noise levels. I will nearly always trade of a stop at the top for observably quieter backs and lower noise levels. New EI Rec Out 800 it will be.
Am I missing something or does anyone else have a different experience?
Chris Young
For me, it seems like one benefit of CINE-EI Applied might be in extreme low light situations where you aren't worried about clipping highlights, but might be concerned about noise. AC notes that with CINE-EI, SLOG 3 would clip / max out at about 85 IRE and SLOG 2 12% for every stop. I will have to get out and try it for myself. But AC seems to be making a case for keeping native ISO where it is. I guess it is saying something when one of Sony's contacts is not recommending the new feature but still there might be a use for it on certain occasions.
You said auto shutter.. that will change the way your footage actually looks.. its not professional at all.. end of story.. its consumer level.. auto focus these days.. ok I can see it working for gimbal shots maybe.. but never as a primary shooting tool.. if you know what your doing you wouldn't use auto shutter in a month of Sundays ..and to expect that from the Fs7 is nuts.. you have bought the wrong camera..
Jason R. Johnston
Well-known member
Not “prosumer.” Auto-X is “consumer”. A professional photog, even a prosumer one, needs to know how photography works, how their actual camera works, and knows these so well that he/she can operate their camera efficiently, creatively, and proficiently. Once you start using lenses with three FIZ rings, and bodies that start to feel heavy wthin a few minutes of use, you need to let go of auto-anything.
You’re not really a photog if you don’t control the image your camera is recording. Doesn’t matter if you’re a consumer with an Alexa, for example. An Alexa doesn’t make you a cinematographer. But a pro can make compelling images with a smart phone camera...in fact, I go out of my way to use either the manual controls of my iOS camera app, or I use a manual camera app that gives me complete control over the image, plus raw so I can later manipulate the image further.
It’s all about control and being consistent with that control. That’s the difference between a consumer/amateur and a pro. Auto-functions take away control. It’s unprofessional letting auto-functions make decisions for you. Sometimes it can’t be helped, but that is the exception and not the rule.
You’re not really a photog if you don’t control the image your camera is recording. Doesn’t matter if you’re a consumer with an Alexa, for example. An Alexa doesn’t make you a cinematographer. But a pro can make compelling images with a smart phone camera...in fact, I go out of my way to use either the manual controls of my iOS camera app, or I use a manual camera app that gives me complete control over the image, plus raw so I can later manipulate the image further.
It’s all about control and being consistent with that control. That’s the difference between a consumer/amateur and a pro. Auto-functions take away control. It’s unprofessional letting auto-functions make decisions for you. Sometimes it can’t be helped, but that is the exception and not the rule.
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We all say the same thing: it is not good to work with auto x it's clear but sometime for special needs like shooting a séquence on gimbal from exterior to interior (from 5500K to 3200K and from hight light to low light) it is cool to have thoses kind of tools especially if you don't have variable nd filter. It is why i told it could be cool to have this auto x tools in CineEI without have to change cineEI to slog3 custom mode (i prefer colors of CineEI). Why not ?
It's like this new firmware update who brings new tool to help colorist, it is not bad even if i will never use it (i prefer adjust lut exposure in 3dlutcreator) but i will never say it's for amateur because i don't use it. Do you better understand me ?
It's like this new firmware update who brings new tool to help colorist, it is not bad even if i will never use it (i prefer adjust lut exposure in 3dlutcreator) but i will never say it's for amateur because i don't use it. Do you better understand me ?
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morgan_moore
Major Contributor
I didn’t realise auto was disabled in EI 
Bumping up this thread...Just wondering if anyone who updated to 4.3 is having issues. Have some down time this week and was thinking of updating today, but when going to Sony's USA site there is message dated 8/7 that " V4.30 firmware is temporarily suspended" and "If you have already installed the V4.30 firmware, please contact Sony’s service desk."
So not even an option to download it now... guess I'm glad I waited....
https://pro.sony/en_GB/support/software/pxw-fs7-software-v4-30
So not even an option to download it now... guess I'm glad I waited....
https://pro.sony/en_GB/support/software/pxw-fs7-software-v4-30
JPNola
Veteran
The notice you linked cites the reason for the suspension of the update:
"When V4.30 is installed, an issue has been noted wherein if you record in the S&Q mode and use specific XQD cards, recording might be stopped."
I am curious as to why the notification says to contact Sony rather than just instruct to re-install the previous version. Interesting that, as far as I know, there has been no traffic on this forum regarding an issue with recording stopping when in S&Q mode. Maybe that's because so few people performed the update since the update only had one new feature and it was a feature few were needing.
Would it be so difficult for a Sony rep to be active on this forum?
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Yeah, I saw the "explanation" but frankly felt that didn't make much sense. As for the Sony rep being active on this forum.... fat chance! Is there even that position any more at Sony? (hard to say since they pulled the Pro section of their own "community forum"
I'll try to poke around Sony US and see the reason for the suspension of the update and the cryptic but fearsome "contact Sony". As a journalist who maintains connections with the various companies, let's just say that Sony has had a number of changes and reconfiguration. Sometimes I think corporations in general just employ a "vice president of let's shuffle the deck because we're bored".