F3: New Convergent Design "Odyssey"
- Thread starter Jason Davenport
- Start date
Thanks for stopping in Dan.
I do appreciate your openness to exchange.
This sounds like an interesting idea (above), but at +7", perhaps a bit unwieldy.
My problem with the monitor version of this kind of solution is that it's just too big for lighter run-n-gun.
I do not understand why every manufacturer to date has failed to address the need we have to whittle down the add-ons to the most essential.
Currently I am running a Samurai and an EVF off of my F3. Why can't a high quality OLED/Recorder be made at the smaller size of an EVF? If we had the screen the size of a single SSD it would be perfect. One box instead of two.
We have all tried to put a loupe up to a Pix 240 for instance, but the screen is jsut too poor. It seems like such a small stretch, a no brainer for so many of us who are shooting. Why is it so difficult to be heard on this?
I appreciate all that you are offering in the Odyssey, it's simply great. But couldn't there be a junior sized brother?
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Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Friends,
Here are some answers in no particular order. I hope to share some insight.
1. We have been working with Sony for some time on the concept of us being able to record from the FS700.
There is progress, but it is really up to Sony. We are ready, willing and able to support the Sony FS700 when Sony provides their approval.
Please feel free to ask Sony at NAB.
2. The SSD that we use in the Gemini 4:4:4 is not sold on the open market. Most 1.8" SSD's are used in Netbooks, thus high performance 1.8" SSD's are very rare.
So the reference to 3X pricing may not be a fair comparison. I know that this is just not the case with the specific SSD that we use.
3. Yes, a 7.7" EVF may just be too big.
We elected to go with a 7.7" Monitor as our Gemini 4:4:4 customers asked for a little larger monitor.
Maybe we will build a great EVF + Recorder in the future, it is too early to tell.
Also, we really do try to listen to our customers and potential customers. Your suggestions will not be forgotten.
In fact, we have already discussed your suggestions at a very high level today.
There were comments about the price of options, such as ARRIRAW.
For background, in order to develop our ARRIRAW Option we had to purchase an ARRI ALEXA with at least one lens, etc.
Then we devoted about a year of our Chief Engineer's time, other developers, and thousands of hours of testing time.
And gaining full ARRIRAW Certification is a complex process.
And there is a limited number of ALEXA's, and even fewer that are used in ARRIRAW mode.
So, if you do the math, the prices are not out-of-line.
Developing Canon 4K Cinema Raw took a little less time.
Developing Avid DNxHD is another huge project. It is not like "just adding the DNxHD code into our system", it is developing the DNxHD code from scratch, both the encoder or decoder after obtaining the rights to do so from Avid.
We could have just purchased a DNxHD codec chip, but then our power draw would increase substantially, so the trade-off is longer development time.
But, there will be more people that will use our Compressed Codec Option which should eventually include Avid DNxHD and another popular codec at no extra charge.
Thus, the price of our Compressed Codec Option will be much less than ARRIRAW or Canon 4K Cinema Raw Options.
"When you say you will release the 'recorder option pricing' what are your referring to?"
The Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q have all of the hardware (processor, firmware, connections, SSD slots, etc), built-in.
And all of the features are available for your testing, but any images recorded will have a permenent watermark in the images.
When you purchase or rent a Recorder Option, you obtain an authorization code to remove the watermark from the images.
For rentals, which will not cost much on a per-day rate, are unlocked for 24 hour periods.
You can purchase a number of 24 hour periods, then put them into your Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q.
But the rental period (24 hours) does not start until you are ready to shoot on-set. Then you "activate" a rental period and a 24 hour countdown timer starts.
If you shoot is delayed, you have not lost a rental day, just do not activate until you are ready to shoot.
And if a shoot is interrupted for one or more days, no problem at all, your rental periods are not lost.
If you wish, at the start of a multiple-day shoot, you can activate multiple days, but this is risky in case the shoot is interrupted, say after Day 3.
This is a very flexible, very fair, and very cost economical rental system.
Just think about it. You are getting prepared for a shoot. The day before the shoot someone decides to switch from an ALEXA to a Canon C500 or vice versa.
Just rent the option that you need.
Or you just have an Odyssey7 without any recording options. Then you need to record for a shoot. Just rent what you need.
If you are a Rental House, you may rent a particular camera frequently, and have purchased the recording option for that camera.
Then, you have an opportunity to rent a less popular camera. All you need to do is rent our recording option for that camera.
For example, we will support the Lux Media Plan, IO Industries, Indiecam, Weisscam and P&S Technik camera. The recording options for these camera may just be rented as needed, or purchased if you specialize in these cameras.
I hope this helps.
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
www.Odyssey7.info
Here are some answers in no particular order. I hope to share some insight.
1. We have been working with Sony for some time on the concept of us being able to record from the FS700.
There is progress, but it is really up to Sony. We are ready, willing and able to support the Sony FS700 when Sony provides their approval.
Please feel free to ask Sony at NAB.
2. The SSD that we use in the Gemini 4:4:4 is not sold on the open market. Most 1.8" SSD's are used in Netbooks, thus high performance 1.8" SSD's are very rare.
So the reference to 3X pricing may not be a fair comparison. I know that this is just not the case with the specific SSD that we use.
3. Yes, a 7.7" EVF may just be too big.
We elected to go with a 7.7" Monitor as our Gemini 4:4:4 customers asked for a little larger monitor.
Maybe we will build a great EVF + Recorder in the future, it is too early to tell.
Also, we really do try to listen to our customers and potential customers. Your suggestions will not be forgotten.
In fact, we have already discussed your suggestions at a very high level today.
There were comments about the price of options, such as ARRIRAW.
For background, in order to develop our ARRIRAW Option we had to purchase an ARRI ALEXA with at least one lens, etc.
Then we devoted about a year of our Chief Engineer's time, other developers, and thousands of hours of testing time.
And gaining full ARRIRAW Certification is a complex process.
And there is a limited number of ALEXA's, and even fewer that are used in ARRIRAW mode.
So, if you do the math, the prices are not out-of-line.
Developing Canon 4K Cinema Raw took a little less time.
Developing Avid DNxHD is another huge project. It is not like "just adding the DNxHD code into our system", it is developing the DNxHD code from scratch, both the encoder or decoder after obtaining the rights to do so from Avid.
We could have just purchased a DNxHD codec chip, but then our power draw would increase substantially, so the trade-off is longer development time.
But, there will be more people that will use our Compressed Codec Option which should eventually include Avid DNxHD and another popular codec at no extra charge.
Thus, the price of our Compressed Codec Option will be much less than ARRIRAW or Canon 4K Cinema Raw Options.
"When you say you will release the 'recorder option pricing' what are your referring to?"
The Odyssey7 and Odyssey7Q have all of the hardware (processor, firmware, connections, SSD slots, etc), built-in.
And all of the features are available for your testing, but any images recorded will have a permenent watermark in the images.
When you purchase or rent a Recorder Option, you obtain an authorization code to remove the watermark from the images.
For rentals, which will not cost much on a per-day rate, are unlocked for 24 hour periods.
You can purchase a number of 24 hour periods, then put them into your Odyssey7 or Odyssey7Q.
But the rental period (24 hours) does not start until you are ready to shoot on-set. Then you "activate" a rental period and a 24 hour countdown timer starts.
If you shoot is delayed, you have not lost a rental day, just do not activate until you are ready to shoot.
And if a shoot is interrupted for one or more days, no problem at all, your rental periods are not lost.
If you wish, at the start of a multiple-day shoot, you can activate multiple days, but this is risky in case the shoot is interrupted, say after Day 3.
This is a very flexible, very fair, and very cost economical rental system.
Just think about it. You are getting prepared for a shoot. The day before the shoot someone decides to switch from an ALEXA to a Canon C500 or vice versa.
Just rent the option that you need.
Or you just have an Odyssey7 without any recording options. Then you need to record for a shoot. Just rent what you need.
If you are a Rental House, you may rent a particular camera frequently, and have purchased the recording option for that camera.
Then, you have an opportunity to rent a less popular camera. All you need to do is rent our recording option for that camera.
For example, we will support the Lux Media Plan, IO Industries, Indiecam, Weisscam and P&S Technik camera. The recording options for these camera may just be rented as needed, or purchased if you specialize in these cameras.
I hope this helps.
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
www.Odyssey7.info
Barry_Green
Moderator
Interesting alternative business model. I am very interested in hearing the details on what the various options will cost, etc. I'm sure it's much too late, but -- what are the prospects (if any) for adding high quality audio recording? A good solid XLR module and pre-amps, making it a direct competitor to the PIX 240i, would certainly pique my interest even more. And what's the story on batteries -- any camera-mountable battery options? I see the minimum power requirement is 10 watts, so that likely means that no, we can't use a single camcorder battery; maybe two ganged together?
starcentral
Veteran
Hi Dan, same question, sorry I didn't see the answer. A quicktime version of DNxHD aside from only a pure certified AVID DNxHD codec will make sure other NLE software can use the file format. Similar to what BlackMagic Design did on the hyperdeck shuttle 2.
That's interesting as all I use is DNxHD quicktime when recording with the hyperdeck shuttle and I have never seen this problem. Resolve plays nicely with it too.
Dan Keaton
Well-known member
Dear Dennis,
I am sorry that I forgot to answer your questions.
Our original plans were to offer Avid DNxHD in a Quicktime wrapper. But, I had one phone call that suggested that this is not the best option.
So, this is to be decided. We need to do more research.
We will announce prices in May.
The Odyssey7 starts shipping July 15.
The Odyssey7Q starts shipping in September.
The Recorder Options are scheduled to ship in Q4.
Dear Barry,
The power is around 8 watts for a monitor and 10 to 15 as a recorder.
The power is 10 Volts DC to 35 Volts DC, with reverse polarity potection, and over-voltage protection. And we have a power switch.
We normally go from 6 to 19 volts in our other products, but there are many applications, such as with the ARRI ALEXA where higher voltages are present.
We will offer a nice battery option. We have a great 14.4 V battery (four Lithium-Ion cells) that power the Gemini 4:4:4 just fine. It should work with the Odyssey7 and 7Q very nicely.
Adding XLR's requires more power, more power supplies, and more space than we had. It would have made the device much thicker.
(you know all of this)
For many cameras, the audio can be input into the camera, then we see it over the HD-SDI.
And if the audio preamps are not great, just feed the camera a line-level input from a mixer.
Dear Sfnerald,
What BCC specific features would you want?
We expect to add user loadable LUTS.
I am sorry if I missed any questions.
I will be unavailable in the morning, but will attempt to catch up in the afternoon.
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
I am sorry that I forgot to answer your questions.
Our original plans were to offer Avid DNxHD in a Quicktime wrapper. But, I had one phone call that suggested that this is not the best option.
So, this is to be decided. We need to do more research.
We will announce prices in May.
The Odyssey7 starts shipping July 15.
The Odyssey7Q starts shipping in September.
The Recorder Options are scheduled to ship in Q4.
Dear Barry,
The power is around 8 watts for a monitor and 10 to 15 as a recorder.
The power is 10 Volts DC to 35 Volts DC, with reverse polarity potection, and over-voltage protection. And we have a power switch.
We normally go from 6 to 19 volts in our other products, but there are many applications, such as with the ARRI ALEXA where higher voltages are present.
We will offer a nice battery option. We have a great 14.4 V battery (four Lithium-Ion cells) that power the Gemini 4:4:4 just fine. It should work with the Odyssey7 and 7Q very nicely.
Adding XLR's requires more power, more power supplies, and more space than we had. It would have made the device much thicker.
(you know all of this)
For many cameras, the audio can be input into the camera, then we see it over the HD-SDI.
And if the audio preamps are not great, just feed the camera a line-level input from a mixer.
Dear Sfnerald,
What BCC specific features would you want?
We expect to add user loadable LUTS.
I am sorry if I missed any questions.
I will be unavailable in the morning, but will attempt to catch up in the afternoon.
Dan Keaton
Convergent Design
LyleGorch
Well-known member
Translation: 2014.
Ok. . .back to reality. So if I sound pissy about this, you are right, I am. It occurs to me that a product announcement for this type of technology with the addendum "2013 q4" is just about worthless with the current product cycles on things like cameras and. . .hey things like SSDs? Anyone in the market for a high end external recorder needs one in the next 3 or 4 months, I have a hard time seeing a scenario where I would be in the market for an external recorder after the end of the year and even when I tell people today that I am shopping for one most of them chuckle.
Ok. . .back to reality. So if I sound pissy about this, you are right, I am. It occurs to me that a product announcement for this type of technology with the addendum "2013 q4" is just about worthless with the current product cycles on things like cameras and. . .hey things like SSDs? Anyone in the market for a high end external recorder needs one in the next 3 or 4 months, I have a hard time seeing a scenario where I would be in the market for an external recorder after the end of the year and even when I tell people today that I am shopping for one most of them chuckle.
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Seems to be a very exciting product and I'll obviously be posting when I get one for review.
I can really relate to Dan's comments regarding SSD's. The BMCC is using consumer-level SSD's. In my review unit, the Kingston SSD Now 120gb SSD dropped frames despite being certified by BMD and despite having worked fine the week before for the prior reviewer. The other SSD is used, the SanDisk 480, performed flawlessly. My Sony contacts told me essentially the same thing Dan says-- consumer level SSD's are not up to the job. We'e covered that in another thread on this board. That's why Sony has gone with a proprietary storage medium and who Convergent-Design has chosen an enterprise-level SSD.
I see no issue with the announced timetable. In fact, based upon other NAB announcements relative to shipment, Q4 is reasonable.
Ned Soltz
I can really relate to Dan's comments regarding SSD's. The BMCC is using consumer-level SSD's. In my review unit, the Kingston SSD Now 120gb SSD dropped frames despite being certified by BMD and despite having worked fine the week before for the prior reviewer. The other SSD is used, the SanDisk 480, performed flawlessly. My Sony contacts told me essentially the same thing Dan says-- consumer level SSD's are not up to the job. We'e covered that in another thread on this board. That's why Sony has gone with a proprietary storage medium and who Convergent-Design has chosen an enterprise-level SSD.
I see no issue with the announced timetable. In fact, based upon other NAB announcements relative to shipment, Q4 is reasonable.
Ned Soltz
True North
Well-known member
I missed that detail until after I had posted and you are correct, I was comparing a 1.8" to a 2.5" SSD which isn't exactly a fair comparison. With a 2.5" SSD the comparisons will be easier to make as far as price and performance. I understand you have to build a sustainable business model I just hope the premium doesn't make the gap that wide.
For purposes of clarification is a 'Recorder option' and a 'CODEC Purchase/Rental' one and the same? In other words, do you have to purchase a 'Recorder Option' and then rent or buy a codec OR do you just buy or rent a codec and that will allow you to record without the watermark ?
starcentral
Veteran
Looks like it will include AVID DNxHD in MXF wrapper - anyone list the NLE's that support this natively?
stefanhuberfilms
Veteran
paulcurtis
Veteran
I have AE and Media Composer. If you give me a source clip, I'll check it out for you.(I suspect the issue is with one of AE's color management settings.) But it's true that DNxHD is not greater than 1080P, and the 4:4:4 version is 10-bit, not 12-bit like ProRes 4:4:4:4.
Do you have any DNxHD clips? If you take one into AE and flip the project settings to 16 bit or 32 bit float you should see the problem in the highlights (and probably from a source that writes out super brights too). I've included an example of what you'd see below. I tested this countless times (even from CG generated imagery). The files will open no problem in Media Composer.
DNxHD 444 isn't supported very well (actually at all) in Nuke for example (more an interaction between Nuke and QT)
ProRes 4:4:4:4 isn't cross platform so no use either.
In the end i have to stick to file based workflows, settled on OpenEXR, there's a lossless wavelet compression option which seems pretty good.
But back to the topic. I'd always wondered whether the way the files are written affects this, so perhaps the odyssey will get around this. I have a feeling it's because the source is written YUV REC709 and compressed into broadcast safe, but with overbrights that is confusing anything operating > 8bpp.
cheers
paul
Attachments
Admit One
Active member
Quicktime = slow, buggy, hobbled on Windows, unsupported on Linux.
If you gave me $1 off the Odyssey7 for every QT issue I've had, it would take a large truck to deliver them all.
Cheers.
Alpha Beta Omega
Veteran
Isn't it time to include a 10-bit 4:2:2/4:4:4 I frame codec that works on all platforms and doesn't have to rely on a licence or the right codec installed. Use something like Hi422/444P or similar to do this.
Since you are bringing some of our feedback to your team - The other thing that I think would be important is to give it both SDI and HDMI capacity, so that as DSLR's evolve into HDMI out devices (such as the 5D Mark III is about to do this month) the EVF can evolve with them. Silly to have to buy two devices today for this kind of thing. That is a huge market which you could have grow with you.
I know that if I had an EVF Recorder that did both inputs, I would buy it in a heartbeat. I could go from a larger cam like the F3 to a 5D in seconds. Perfect.
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