New Camera Choice Quandary

morgan_moore said:
Id steer clear of non video cameras if you enjoy XLR and ND - I do.

Options for low end large chip video cameras are simply..

AF100 - cheap fully featured, 6/10 image
FS100 - missing ND, 60p 7/10 image (no SDI)
FS700 - fully featured 240p 7/10 image
C100 - 30p, no SDI weird shape, 8/10 image
F3 - cheap used, 30p 9/10 image
and on up the chain
Click to expand...

F3 if upgraded to Slog has 60p out via 3g.

What about an used HPX3000 or PMW350K?
http://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=39795

You could probably put a working rig together for app. 10k. I know eng cams have long been forgoten but IMHO this are the "true" docu cams:)
 
Last edited:
KINOKS said:
F3 if upgraded to Slog has 60p out via 3g.

What about an used HPX3000 or PMW350K?
http://www.bblist.co.uk/item.php?item=39795

You could probably put a working rig together for app. 10k. I know eng cams have long been forgoten but IMHO this are the "true" docu cams:)
Click to expand...


The C100/300 has turned into the current iteration of ENG/documentary cameras.
Most docu teams that I know of use them today.
They are small, have push button focus, cheap on media, etc.
The in-camera codec is actually quite good even though it is AVCHD, and you can always add a recorder for added quality.
 
I agree. I can never go without onboard ND filters. I'm considering the cs100 and the fs100 now. I definitely found problems with the AF100 off tripod. I found it frustrating to use at times for some of the reasons Noah lists above. If I do move over to the CS100 or FS100, there is that little issue of lenses. I have mostly nikon and I also invested in that lovely Lumix 12-36mm 2.8. Not little bucks. But, I suppose I can sell that and pick up some used canon lenses? Hmmm. I have to research this a bit more. But, yes, I need something that works well in uncontrolled environments. Although i do do a bit of tripod work, much of what I do is "catching the moment" and I usually do work as a one man band.

Thanks everybody for your advice. Thanks Darren for the equipment insurance info. In the meantime, if anyone hears of a good deal for a CS100 or FS700, let me know!
 
Personally I'm a massive non fan of the canons.

Canons are awkward to rig, often used with the lens at gut height, which is fine for test videos, but useless for pleasant interviews.

This posture puts the lens to low for interviews and you cant hold steady for more than 15seconds.. it is an illusion of practicality, looks cool, but sucks.
thumb_01_canon_dslr_workshop.jpg

Canon monitors are not good enough to focus (unless you shoot everything at 17mm f5.6 - in which case you get a look which is no more cinematic than the ex1) but you can't remove the stock monitor and keep your audio.

Any one who wants to hold focus with a proper framing needs a decent monitor shooting S35 at a wide stop or longer lens.

The Canon lens mount does not take many lenses and Canon lenses are no good for filming due to the short focus throw and annoying electric interface. Canon lenses also fall apart a decade quicker than manual lenses - true for other af lenses too.

Canon has no space for a speed booster, no 10bit out and no high frame rates.

I can see the C100 is sweet being the cheapest s35 camera with ND - but the C300 is the camera of the non thinking herd. To be fair the c300 is the smallest cam with 50mbs and s35 ND and audio, but IMO is completely superceded by the F5.

IMO only a loon would choose the c300 over an f5

Really all of the cams cheaper than the F5 are flawed for use by grown ups - it is really important that one knows the compromises one is making when making the choice - which flaw is acceptable to you?

My own recent choice was the f3 - the compromise (flaw) is that it is heavy with a recorder, my previous choice was the FS100 - really the lack of ND ruins that camera and it had to go.

I think the f5 (s35 chip) or the pmw200 (or Canon equivalent) are sort of the cheapest non compromise cameras - the PMW200 of course is not large chip..

S

---
BTW Ive commercially shot; F3, FS100, FS700, C300, Scarlet, EX1.
 
Last edited:
Fair enough, but they are the cheapest cams that are not a compromise.

Choose the one that presents the fewest compromises to your needs.
 
morgan_moore said:
I can see the C100 is sweet being the cheapest s35 camera with ND
Click to expand...

Put a SpeedBooster on an AF100 and you've got an even cheaper, effectively slightly-larger-than-S35" camera with ND... albeit with the other foibles of the AF. FWIW I built a side-mounted handle/shoulder support from one rail block, some Al bar stock, a pair of rods, a handle, and a shoulder pad... not pricey, compact, and I can shoulder the thing steadily for hours... but then there's that less-than-class-leading image and unforgiving nature to deal with.
 
Some people like to criticise the C series Canon cameras every chance they get but for many people they are the ideal run and gun/documentary video camera.

I just looked at your clock shop documentary and I think for this kind of work the C100 would be ideal.

Remember that your Nikon lenses can be adapted to work with a C100.

The C100 DOES have slow motion if you need it. It's not 1080 and requires a small workaround but it is excellent quality for most uses.

Get yourself a Canon 17-55 lens and you'll be ready to go.

Buy new as Canon warranty's don't pass on and secondhand C100s are generally pretty pricey anyway as they are good at retaining their value.

my 2c
 
Yes, I am leaning now to the c100 -- mainly because I've been disappointed by both the dynamic range and the low light performance of the AF100 and it sounds like the c100 does a much better job in low light which I need since I am often working with available light.

I will need lenses though ---- I have a friend who has canon lenses I can borrow for a while -- she's a photographer -- but, yeah, it sounds like it's turning into a lot of money fast . . . . I just purchased the lumix 12-35 7 months ago. How much do you think I can get for it?
 
My vote for run and gun doc type work is the Sony PMW-200 or a used Sony EX1R. The PMW-200 isn't that much more than a C100 considering it includes a very useful zoom lens. The built in zoom and 1/2" sensor will make life easier for focus. But yeah, beyond those two, the Canon C100 is a great choice.

The Sony FS100 lacks built in ND's, I owned one and I loved it for the price but found the image more than a little soft compared to the C100 image. The Sony F3 only really stands out from the crowd once you get into all the 10 bit external recorder options with slog.
 
cathstrat said:
Yes, I am leaning now to the c100 -- mainly because I've been disappointed by both the dynamic range and the low light performance of the AF100 and it sounds like the c100 does a much better job in low light which I need since I am often working with available light.

I will need lenses though ---- I have a friend who has canon lenses I can borrow for a while -- she's a photographer -- but, yeah, it sounds like it's turning into a lot of money fast . . . . I just purchased the lumix 12-35 7 months ago. How much do you think I can get for it?
Click to expand...

The C100 is insanely good in low light. You will not be disappointed.

Looking at the completed listings on Ebay for the 12-35 you should get $800-$850. And that is more than the cost of a new Canon 17-55 which is a very good replacement for that 12-35 lens in terms of focal length on the C100. The 17-55 is only $779 from B&H right now (you have to put it in your cart to see the discount price)

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/425812-USA/Canon_1242B002AA_EF_S_17_55mm_f_2_8_IS.html

I just looked at more of your films. Nice work. It's the kind of work I do bit of. I'm currently shooting a promo for an organic food co op and cafe...

I don't think you need an ENG style camera like Doctor Wu is suggesting. It's not like you're actually doing run and gun as far as I can see and those cameras suggested wont compare to the C100 as far as low light performance is concerned or I assume dynamic range (although don't quote me on that).

Good luck.
 
Hi Flouro, I plan to check out your work. Thanks for your compliments. I do seem to be using a lot more tripod work but I have discovered this amazing monopod with fold out tripod legs at the bottom where fluid head is -- I think it's a Bogen? Anyway, I use that A LOT for hand held and I love it! Easy to get really low and really high.

The one thing that I mentioned that is worrying me about the c100, again, is the lcd which is limited movement. I am short, only 5'3" -- so am constantly flipping the lcd -- whether using the onboard lcd or a monitor -- then shooting high or low or whatever. I like having the monitor on the left side of the camera, rather on top. Gives me more flexibility. That said, is there a work around that you know of?
 
Catherine: fs100 is more sensitive then C100 and has less noise (somebody correct me if I'm wrong). It's the same as F3. It's DR is half a stop lower then c100, but (and this is a big but) the c100 has a log gamma and a wide dr gamma ( which is imho the best gamma for c100). Don't get me wrong; c100 has better IQ, but it wont trump fs100 in low light.

I also agree that F5 is the current top dog. Only reason for buying an c300 is lenses and cheaper price. Don't forget the f5 comes without an evf...
 
cathstrat said:
Okay, opinions please. Found this awesome deal on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-C...rofessional_Video_Cameras&hash=item3388fdb944 for the C100 for around 5K - free shipping, free 14 day return. Best price I've found. That said, B&H is having a special. The camera is $5499 plus if you buy Canon lens, you get a $500 rebate. So, I want to do B&H but its final sale . . any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...


C100 is amazing in low light, I never A/Bed directly but feels on par with F3 for sure: noisier at base ISO than the competition (barely noisier and nice noise texture, and better in tungsten than red but not as super clean at 5600K) but cleaner at extreme ISOs than the rest by a bit. AVCHD is ok… not great at super high ISOs, you need an external recorder for that as you get a nice grain texture that AVCHD struggles with, not great with foliage but not horrible… Codec is ok but not great. But for the price the IQ is insane. Closer to an Alexa than to a 5D III and IMO the sensor is much better than Red MX. I know the BMCC is the best in terms of IQ exclusively for the money but this is amazing for its ergonomics, lens selections, and versatility, and the images look beautiful. And post is so much easier!

Love the 17-55mm f2.8 IS with it. 24-105mm f4 IS L is nicer for outdoor doc work though. Currently rocking the 18-35mm f1.8 but for narrative with a 50mm f1.4 prime and 70-200mm f2.8 II IS to round out the gap.

Ergonomics are amazing for doc, but the viewfinder and EVF are poor. Viewfinder is TERRIBLE. Ergonomically it is great if you are not a big person. I am 6' and can lift big things without trouble but operating a fully outfitted F5 all day is giving me back pains. The C100 is truly is a tiny camera, but becomes obnoxiously front heavy with a huge white zoom; with smaller lenses it is great with no shoulder mount just a base plate and FF even.

Easy to expose wrong. Some people intuitively expose right, others don't; when in doubt meter. Canon log is weird and AVCHD does limit your latitude in post for sure, especially in Canon log. Canon colors pop, though. Beautiful skin tone and foliage rendition. Highlights roll off to over saturated, to undersaturated, so grade them down a bit! They blow out nicer in SLOG for sure not to mention the extra 2 bits of tonality.

Just get the C100! It rocks! If you can afford the F5 I must admit it is quite the camera, but it's a pain to use and a pain to post on and expensive and the image doesn't have the same pop plus its 2000 ISO is fuzzy and chunky in the shadows. Still the best price/performance in its category but three times the price and way battery hungry by comparison.
 
cathstrat said:
Hi Flouro, I plan to check out your work. Thanks for your compliments. I do seem to be using a lot more tripod work but I have discovered this amazing monopod with fold out tripod legs at the bottom where fluid head is -- I think it's a Bogen? Anyway, I use that A LOT for hand held and I love it! Easy to get really low and really high.

The one thing that I mentioned that is worrying me about the c100, again, is the lcd which is limited movement. I am short, only 5'3" -- so am constantly flipping the lcd -- whether using the onboard lcd or a monitor -- then shooting high or low or whatever. I like having the monitor on the left side of the camera, rather on top. Gives me more flexibility. That said, is there a work around that you know of?
Click to expand...

Gee that's a tough one. Why they designed the LCD in such a way beats me. Basically if you have the camera above you there's no way to swivel it so you can look up at it. You either need to be level with the camera or have it below you in order to see the LCD directly. Of course if it's a little above, you can still see the LCD, but it's not ideal.

There really is no perfect camera out there... In a way I find it hard to suggest the C100 because it has its flaws. But what else suits your requirements?
 
cathstrat said:
Okay, opinions please. Found this awesome deal on ebay http://www.ebay.com/itm/Canon-EOS-C...rofessional_Video_Cameras&hash=item3388fdb944 for the C100 for around 5K - free shipping, free 14 day return. Best price I've found. That said, B&H is having a special. The camera is $5499 plus if you buy Canon lens, you get a $500 rebate. So, I want to do B&H but its final sale . . any thoughts on this?
Click to expand...

Well if it's the 24-105 lens then think about that. I owned this lens with the C100 and don't get me wrong it's a great lens but I wish I'd gone with the 17-55 instead. Sometimes the 24-105 would just not get wide enough and while the 17-55 is a bit short at the tele end, that's an easier problem to solve than not being able to get wide enough because usually you can just get closer. And it's f/2.8 versus F/4 so it's a stop faster.

Try and get a C100 in your hands before you buy if you can, if you have not already.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top