New camera announcements from Canon

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

It was exactly five years ago (sep 2010) that Canon presented their hair dryer 4K concept camera. Unlike today, in that case there was even a hardware mockup. It came to be the XC-10, which hit the shelves a few months ago. Back then they also presented a 120 Mpìx APS-H sensor. Which went nowhere.

Distinguish between patents/showcasing of individual technological components and an actual product announced and promised. It's very clear to see.


-The 2/3'' 4K Hairdryer was pronounced as a concept with no plans for production at all, no promise, actually there is a promise it will not come,

-Also the 1.5" 250mp Canon sensor showcase is crystal clear to be a proof of concept not a promise of a product.

-the same with the APS-H 120MP sensor back in 2010, where Canon states that ''farther development of this unique sensor technology Canon can break into new grounds'', it's pretty viable assumption that the new 120MP sensor SLR is the maturation of that concept, just like Canon announced years back the FF 1080p ultra high lowlight performance sensor as an individual technology component and it became a reality after improving upon it.



-With these new today announcements, ''Canon announces that it is developing a Cinema EOS System 8K camera and professional-use 8K reference display that will support the production of next-generation 8K video content, along with a still-image single-lens reflex camera equipped with a CMOS sensor featuring approximately 120 million effective pixels.'' going on detailing the final 8K Cinema EOS camera size, mount, frame rates, DR, sensor size, workflow, a product not a concept/tech-showcase

-Same with the 120mp sensor ''the SLR camera now being developed will incorporate a Canon-developed high-pixel-density CMOS sensor within the current EOS-series platform'', Very clear.

Don't forget what they did in 2011 ''Canon is developing a new 4K Cinema EOS system along with the development of a 4K Capable Digital SLR for the next generation of 4K digital cinematography'', promising clearly two products, a picture of a 1d slr with a 4k badge with no information other than 4K just like this new 120mp DSLR, and a specs promise of a new 4K C-line, later the promise came to the market very fast in the form of a 1DC and C500.


Knowing Canon and reading all their announcements and even patents, the new announcement are crystal clear that they'll be:

-8K 60p 13 stops of DR S35 C-line EF-mount ''camera''

-120mp EOS DSLR (they confirm it will compatible with only 60 lenses so it's either FF or APS-H. The 2010 120mp one was APS-H so there's a strong possibility it's a tweaked modern version)

-8K reference HDR display

very soon

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

They are not. Maybe they will at some point but resolution is not innovation in my book.

What is?

The Only AF system in history of motion pictures? 15 stops of Dynamic range? 4000.000 ISO? 8K 60P cinema? 120MP DSLR?

 

[Eric Coughlin]

About the new Canon, 8K in a 35mm sensor? Will this be ISO400? 13 stops only just to get 8K? I take 14 stops in 4K please.

Yeah, 15 stops in 4K (C300 Mark II) seems superior to 13 stops in 8K for most productions. Sure, there'd be a select few productions which would benefit more from the higher resolution, but probably many more would benefit from the higher dynamic range.

 

[indiawilds]

Yup, you read that right, Canon. Check it. 8k. Get ready to mortgage the house....lol.

http://www.canon.com/news/2015/sep08e2.html

The golden rule is if your business can't justify it, then don't give in to temptation and buy an equipment.

In India, I can't get a decent flat at the cost of Canon's top end camera.

By the way, I had earlier mentioned in this thread that Canon will go for 8K later but won't do 5k/6k http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...erious&p=1986522529&highlight=#post1986522529

 

[Ebrahim Saadawi]

Yeah, 15 stops in 4K (C300 Mark II) seems superior to 13 stops in 8K for most productions. Sure, there'd be a select few productions which would benefit more from the higher resolution, but probably many more would benefit from the higher dynamic range.

I can argue the opposite. The 4 times as much resolution is more beneficial to a larger number of productions in real life than a noisier shadows/Stop or two less DR.

Of course both of us are wrong because only each specific DP for each project will be able to make that decision.

The thing is, no body has 8K cinema cameras, none, so complaining it's only 13 stops seems a bit bitter, especially since Canon already provides a camera with a lower resolution and highest available DR on the market C300II.

Going from 8 megapixels to 36 megapixels on an APS-C size sensor yet still maintaining a DR of 13 stops similar to all cinema cameras is pretty impressive. The Fullframe 36mp Sony that does 5fps is 14 stops, so nothing come close to this Canon offering.

I wonder what will people find to be bitter at Canon innovation, DR and Resolution and lowlight performance and speed are out, so, perhaps ergonomics? We will all now leave DR and want a shoulder camera.

 

[Eric Coughlin]

I can argue the opposite. The 4 times as much resolution is more beneficial to a larger number of productions in real life than a noisier shadows/Stop or two less DR.

Considering the Arri Alexa with better dynamic range (and better colors) gets used more on big budget productions than the Red Dragon which has higher resolution, I'd say that the majority of DP's value dynamic range over resolution.

In a practical sense a big budget production is still often going to deal with high contrast scenes no matter how much time and budget they have for lighting, so the dynamic range is going to be beneficial to them. 8K, though, is going to benefit them how? Give them more re-framing capabilities so they can re-frame while maintaining a 4K master? A lot of theatrical productions shot in 4k-6K currently are still being mastered in 2K for the big screen, and it's not because the display format has not caught up with the camera's resolution. Even when a film is mastered in 4K, a lot of DPs don't want the editor re-framing their carefully composed shot in post, as well as some DPs not liking the extra sharp look of 4K. I'm not talking about "each specific DP for each project," I'm making generalizations.

I'm not saying 8k won't have uses. It will. I just think that higher dynamic range will be considered more important by the majority of DPs out there, and I think the Arri Alexa proves my point.

 

[Gary W]

"I'd say that the majority of DP's value dynamic range over resolution."
Yes, I would have to agree with Eric as well. DR is more important then resolution, the human eye can barely see HD as it is, the main benifit of higher resolution is for the editor in most cases.

 

[DLD]

I mean I remember seeing NHK's 8K camera and projection system showing actual 8K content produced with the system at NAB 2007... I'm not sure there is any reason to think any manufacturer is pushing much harder now to release an 8K camera except that incremental improvements over the past 8 years have naturally made their current hardware a bit closer. It's just as likely that it is still another 8 years away or perhaps 8K may be achieved by one manufacturer only to realize there is no market due to diminishing returns of resolution and missing infrastructure to support the 8K post/distribution after 8K capture. 4K still isn't even that common now. And am still one in the minority in that I have a 4K TV/monitor and shoot 4K projects but still rarely get to see anything distributed in 4K...

It's, on the one hand, incremental due to the technological advances but also a political, since no major manufacturer wants to yield the "innovator" badge to its competitors. To some extent, the announcement is like a Ford super sport car that is priced into the stratosphere and is out of the budget range of even the upscale consumers. On the other hand, this is the "racing" technology that makes it way down to the consumer level within several years to a decade.

As to 8K, the related hyper realism is obviously wanted by the media covering major events, such as the Olympics. After that, it'll slowly make its way to the top movie theaters and the high end home installations. The recent projection I read had 1,000,000 8K sets in consumer hands by 2020 (I assume this is global). It smells like an ultra high end product for the next decade but a much sooner arrival for the top media pros.

Still waiting for 4k broadcasts and a way to buy 4k content in the stores.

Why would you wait for the broadcast when you can get it on demand? I mean, the broadcast model of waiting to be shown something when the broadcaster is ready is basically superseded by the ability to watch something at any time one desires, the so-called "infinite channel" universe. The OTA broadcast is good for Monday Night Football and the World Cup but everything else has moved on from there.

This is what I thought when I read the announcement. A C500 II with 8K sensor for 4K internal capture and possible 8K off camera RAW. It would be a logical step up from the C300 II and inline with how Canon has been using sensors in their cinema cameras.

This is not C500 MKII, which should be announced at the NAB'16. That one is likely to be 6K (either s35 or FF ... Canon seems to drift toward s35) with a dual readout a la C300 MK II and 15 stops, i.e., roughly Alexa65 specs if not Alexa65 size sensor. I fully expect Sony to make a medium format high end camera, since they already produce the MF sensor for Pentax and Hasselblad.

Yeah, 15 stops in 4K (C300 Mark II) seems superior to 13 stops in 8K for most productions. Sure, there'd be a select few productions which would benefit more from the higher resolution, but probably many more would benefit from the higher dynamic range.

I don't think you'll be short-changed on the DR by 2020 on any front with the exception of the displays. And those are the proverbial "last mile" in the whole process.

 

[Erik Naso]

I find it interesting how strong the language is in the press release. Canon doesn't like to talk about future cameras in development. In this release they state exactly what they are going to release but not in the form they are showing it. The mock up is a C500 body. I doubt that will be the case. Even the lens has a 8K badge on it. I think by doing this now Canon wants you to know they are in the game. 4K has been slow for them. Lots of people are saying it and they know they are late to the party and this time around they don't want to be and come in late with a six pack a light beer. By letting the world know they have the 8K sensor and the reference monitor to go with it is pretty impressive.

 

[Gweilo66]

Awkward moment for some Canon fans who have been poo poo-ing 4k…

 

[indiawilds]

Even the lens has a 8K badge on it. .

Don't doubt that 8k lens. Canon had earlier showed a prototype of 8k lens 19.7-138 mm cinema servo lens. It was created for broadcaster NKH. it can resolve 7630x4320
https://vimeo.com/112484076

 

[Emanuel]

Yes, that chart is old, and many of those cameras never appeared, and never will. Which is exactly my point: a "we are working on this" announcement means very little. Because talk is cheap, and because everybody is working on something.

True. Point made, but moot, Samuel. Seems those two who married yesterday thinking they will never have a fight in their happy end marriage. The point is, instead: we can try to be happy if not in the same way the plan was designed : D somewhere nearby.

 

[DPStewart]

Still waiting for 4k broadcasts and a way to buy 4k content in the stores.

Kinda sums up a lot of this...don't it?

8K is like "super space technology!" ... it's cool that it exists, but if 4k is still this elusive then it's not really part of the real world experience yet.

 

[dustylense]

I laugh at people that say canon doesn't innovate. Especially ones that seem to have bought 5 or 6 Sony cameras in the past 8 months alone.

 

[Tom Roper]

I wish the best for Canon but this sounds kind of desperate. I don't think they will ever regain the initiative in video, and they might lose the lead in photography.

 

[Emanuel]

Kinda sums up a lot of this...don't it?

8K is like "super space technology!" ... it's cool that it exists, but if 4k is still this elusive then it's not really part of the real world experience yet.

When? 2015? Yes. Not in the future, though.

 

[Emanuel]

I laugh at people that say canon doesn't innovate. Especially ones that seem to have bought 5 or 6 Sony cameras in the past 8 months alone.

Man, I am a Sony guy these days (tell me where Canon is offering an a7RII to begin with?) but I didn't give up to be a Canonist at same time. Bought two Canon large printers, as for instance, received last month. As matter of fact, Sony acquistion on Canon delivery ;-)

 

[dustylense]

I wish the best for Canon but this sounds kind of desperate. I don't think they will ever regain the initiative in video, and they might lose the lead in photography.

LOL! They have the proven workhorse C300 version 2 coming that is ACES capable with a 15 stop DR and 2K RGB444. That camera is going to be everywhere just like the V1 version, only more so.

Look, just because Canon doesn't release 11 cameras a year (LOOK! SQUIRREL!!!) doesn't mean they are behind. In fact, I believe they are ahead of the curve. They innovate and release when the market is ready. Tell me, who had the first sub $50,000/30,000/20,000 4K camera on the market? Canon or Sony? Who had the first 4k DSLR? Canon or Sony? Now, Sony might have 15 4k cameras (LOOK SQUIRREL!!!!) so they can push 4K TV's at Costco (MORE SQUIRRELS!!!!).... You get the point.

 

[Emanuel]

LOL! They have the proven workhorse C300 version 2 coming that is ACES capable with a 15 stop DR and 2K RGB444. That camera is going to be everywhere just like the V1 version, only more so.

Look, just because Canon doesn't release 11 cameras a year (LOOK! SQUIRREL!!!) doesn't mean they are behind. In fact, I believe they are ahead of the curve. They innovate and release when the market is ready. Tell me, who had the first sub $50,000/30,000/20,000 4K camera on the market? Canon or Sony? Who had the first 4k DSLR? Canon or Sony? Now, Sony might have 15 4k cameras (LOOK SQUIRREL!!!!) so they can push 4K TV's at Costco (MORE SQUIRRELS!!!!).... You get the point.

Christopher, your point is right, but not your animosity against Sony. They are not behind Canon or any other brand either, perhaps on the contrary.

- E.

 

[dustylense]

Man, I am a Sony guy these days (tell me where Canon is offering an a7RII to begin with?) but I didn't give up to be a Canonist at same time. Bought two Canon large printers, as for instance, received last month. As matter of fact, Sony acquistion on Canon delivery ;-)

The A7RII is a nice little camera. But for video not so much. That highlight aliasing tho!!!!.. And that color, yuck. And stick it in a cooler so you can shoot for 30 mins.

I'm more of the stills shooter primarily and I can tell you that NONE of my buddies in the business shoot with Sony. NONE NONE NONE. 9/10 of them are Canon guys. And 8/10 of them are shooting the 5DsR (as am I). Myself and a good buddy tried going Sony (with the A7r) and both of us just couldn't take the color over Canon or Nikon.

Look, I don't mind Sony, but they are spinning in circles. Every other month a new camera. LOOK! Squirrel!!!!