General New 60D or Used XHA1

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FilmmakerLeo

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I'm looking at cameras for a documentary and I have about $2,000 to spend. I was originally looking at the 60D, Rode lavaliere, LCDVF and the rode videomic but then I saw that used XHA1's with batteries and a mic where on craigslist for about $2,000, I'm mainly looking at the XHA1 because the audio is much better and it's more of a traditional video camera.
Is it a good idea to buy used mini-dv cameras on craiglist? If so which Camera would be the best for documentaries?

Thanks
 
FilmmakerLeo said:
I'm looking at cameras for a documentary and I have about $2,000 to spend. I was originally looking at the 60D, Rode lavaliere, LCDVF and the rode videomic but then I saw that used XHA1's with batteries and a mic where on craigslist for about $2,000, I'm mainly looking at the XHA1 because the audio is much better and it's more of a traditional video camera.
Is it a good idea to buy used mini-dv cameras on craiglist? If so which Camera would be the best for documentaries?

Thanks
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XHA1 will probably be a better camera for this job. 60d will more than likely have a nicer picture but for shooting documentaries that XHA1 will be a solid performer.
 
vision_filmz said:
XHA1 will probably be a better camera for this job. 60d will more than likely have a nicer picture but for shooting documentaries that XHA1 will be a solid performer.
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Also depends where you are shooting. I shoot with a Sony EX3, Canon 5D and 60D. The Canons have a better looking picture (to me) and are just as easy to work with when you are experienced with them. Audio may require an additional step, but that's film making.
The DSLRs will always be my pick in public situations where you don't want to draw attention to yourself. Even though the XHA1 is a relatively small video camera, it will usually attract a crowd and permit issues. The DSLRs are almost invisible to the general public. High quality Imagery, under the radar.
I've shot with the 60D in malls, supermarkets, and just about everyplace I could never use the Sony.
 
ROCKMORE said:
Also depends where you are shooting. I shoot with a Sony EX3, Canon 5D and 60D. The Canons have a better looking picture (to me) and are just as easy to work with when you are experienced with them. Audio may require an additional step, but that's film making.
The DSLRs will always be my pick in public situations where you don't want to draw attention to yourself. The XHA1 will attract a crowd and permit issues. The DSLRs are almost invisible to the general public. High quality Imagery, under the radar.
I've shot with the 60D in malls, supermarkets, and just about everyplace I could never use the Sony.
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Agree 100%, but in a controlled situation where you have lighting and permission to record I would use the XHA1. You can easily send out a visual and audio feed to the boards and have a nice zoom lens with smooth zoom that really does not exist with a Canon Dslr

I love these dslrs but in certain situations I personally prefer a traditionally video camera, specifically Live Events.
 
Why you ask...it was very run and gun. I was shooting by without any other crew member and I had to do audio in addition to shooting and light. When you have to run around say a large area and interview people one after another it gets to be a pain in the arse with the audio alone. I do not have a ton of cash for a nice shoulder rig and lugging around the zoom H4n and having to worry about it is a pain. Eventually what I did was built a make shift harness to hook up the H4n and wireless reciever to but it still sucks. Nothing like setting that all up for a sit down interview, throwing a Marshal monitor on top, securing the H4n, receiver and not to forget the ND filters or Vari ND. In the end it looks like the DSLR in in the center of a Frankenstein mess.

Having a true video camera really helps with this. I've shot in the past with the DVX run and gun and having dedicated audio, a simple flip out monitor and being able to use the built in ND filters really makes a difference along with all the other things it has to offer.

Now if you have a decent crew then this stuff might not be as much as an issue but I'm just sharing my experience. A lot of people shoot a 10mins or so documentary in a fairly controlled environment and base all experiences off that to judge if it's good for doc work but when you have to get into some nitty gritty events in a hurry, it'll make sense what I'm saying.

Also the time it takes to sync up the audio is a loss of time, on the clients dollar not to mention all the transcoding time, and if you're on Avid, forget it. (which I'm not anymore because I work with DSLR so much)

As for using it for a feature or short film, I'd say that's when I enjoy using it.
 
draven4 said:
Why you ask...it was very run and gun. I was shooting by without any other crew member and I had to do audio in addition to shooting and light. When you have to run around say a large area and interview people one after another it gets to be a pain in the arse with the audio alone. I do not have a ton of cash for a nice shoulder rig and lugging around the zoom H4n and having to worry about it is a pain. Eventually what I did was built a make shift harness to hook up the H4n and wireless reciever to but it still sucks. Nothing like setting that all up for a sit down interview, throwing a Marshal monitor on top, securing the H4n, receiver and not to forget the ND filters or Vari ND. In the end it looks like the DSLR in in the center of a Frankenstein mess.

Having a true video camera really helps with this. I've shot in the past with the DVX run and gun and having dedicated audio, a simple flip out monitor and being able to use the built in ND filters really makes a difference along with all the other things it has to offer.

Now if you have a decent crew then this stuff might not be as much as an issue but I'm just sharing my experience. A lot of people shoot a 10mins or so documentary in a fairly controlled environment and base all experiences off that to judge if it's good for doc work but when you have to get into some nitty gritty events in a hurry, it'll make sense what I'm saying.

Also the time it takes to sync up the audio is a loss of time, on the clients dollar not to mention all the transcoding time, and if you're on Avid, forget it. (which I'm not anymore because I work with DSLR so much)

As for using it for a feature or short film, I'd say that's when I enjoy using it.
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I was hired 2 weeks ago to quickly run-and-gun some interviews for someone being honored at an out-of-state event, and brought my T2i w/Magic Lantern and my Sennheiser wireless lav. That + lights was ALL I needed, and my experience was the complete opposite.
It sounds to me like you were making things over complicated. Marshall monitor?? For a sit down interview when the camera isn't moving? Why??

With my setup, Magic Lantern makes the H4N unnecessary (Sennheiser pre-amped feed direct into camera sounds great), set the focus before shooting (with either auto focus or zoom to focus manually), and heck I even brought along headphones to monitor in real time out of the camera. All this sitting atop a simple tripod, and the production company that hired me loved how it came out.
If you have to move around a lot, a simple $30 cowboy studio shoulder mount works great.

I don't blame you for being annoyed with the workflow to record and sync sound in post, that's why I keep trying to plug the whole ML thing. Without Magic Lantern, I'd still be lugging my DVX along as a backup for run and gun work.
 
I was filming in a community garden had 3 interviews, outside during the day, then there were 3 more people in various places around the garden working and I had to go out to those corners and shoot them while standing between crops and conduct and interview per the producers instructions to get the shot.

So you think you don't need a good monitor even though someone is sitting down? Shooting outdoors in various degrees of changing light... it's a good idea to monitor correctly.

Also I have a 7d so no magic lantern, so I guess this is a great lesson to those people who debate weather to buy a 7d or a T2i with Magic Lantern. You're proof how much better it could work out. You said you didn't need ND filters because you were indoors..... so I did because I was outdoors. Look at my situation.... I just don't like the fact you said I'm over complicating my situation. I think I did right to make the best interview I could do with the best look I could bring using the right tools to help me get it done.

As I said I'm sharing my experience. Maybe it's good I did so that others can see the benefits of a T2i w Magic Lantern.

Maybe the moral of the story it to shoot like this the T2i with ML might be the one for me instead.

Here's the thing though.

Lets say there's a real run and gun situation. Like lets say for example you were hired to film a doc and you had to film a protest. And all hell is breaking out. People are shouting and running around. And you have to grab an interview here and there.

Now lets complicate it and say that on during that time you are outdoors and there is 100 degree weather say in Arizona.

What can go wrong with a DSLR???

Let's focus on the bad things for a sec. Let's say this happens
The heat keeps overheating your camera and you have to constantly wait for the camera to turn it back on. You are starting to miss the important events of action in the protest. That's just one example.

The thing about a doc is you need to keep up with real life and changing situations very quickly. A video camera can do that better than a DSLR. Not saying nothing can be shot with it but there are things about it that makes is just not ideal.

Where it is ideal is in its concealment. I will say that.
 
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I would NEVER to documentary work with a Dslr and more specifically a t2i, as soon as you get that over heating warning you might as well kill yourself :angry:, also the 12 minute time limit kills you.
 
draven4 said:
I was filming in a community garden had 3 interviews, outside during the day, then there were 3 more people in various places around the garden working and I had to go out to those corners and shoot them while standing between crops and conduct and interview per the producers instructions to get the shot.

So you think you don't need a good monitor even though someone is sitting down? Shooting outdoors in various degrees of changing light... it's a good idea to monitor correctly.

Also I have a 7d so no magic lantern, so I guess this is a great lesson to those people who debate weather to buy a 7d or a T2i with Magic Lantern. You're proof how much better it could work out. You said you didn't need ND filters because you were indoors..... so I did because I was outdoors. Look at my situation.... I just don't like the fact you said I'm over complicating my situation. I think I did right to make the best interview I could do with the best look I could bring using the right tools to help me get it done.

As I said I'm sharing my experience. Maybe it's good I did so that others can see the benefits of a T2i w Magic Lantern.

Maybe the moral of the story it to shoot like this the T2i with ML might be the one for me instead.

Here's the thing though.

Lets say there's a real run and gun situation. Like lets say for example you were hired to film a doc and you had to film a protest. And all hell is breaking out. People are shouting and running around. And you have to grab an interview here and there.

Now lets complicate it and say that on during that time you are outdoors and there is 100 degree weather say in Arizona.

What can go wrong with a DSLR???

Let's focus on the bad things for a sec. Let's say this happens
The heat keeps overheating your camera and you have to constantly wait for the camera to turn it back on. You are starting to miss the important events of action in the protest. That's just one example.

The thing about a doc is you need to keep up with real life and changing situations very quickly. A video camera can do that better than a DSLR. Not saying nothing can be shot with it but there are things about it that makes is just not ideal.

Where it is ideal is in its concealment. I will say that.
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Ok, to be fair, most of your complaints in this and the previous post have to do with the specific setup you are using, and are not necessarily indicitive of ALL DSLRs. The only reason I made a big deal about your statement was because you started with the post "I have worked on a doc and can tell you... next time I do it I am not using a DSLR", despite the possibility that your negative experience may have been avoided with a slightly different setup and choice of equipment.
For example, the 7D is more prone to overheating due to the dual processor design- the 60D and T2i aren't known to overheat so often. In fact, I've heard it claimed that the 60D doesn't overheat at all except during extenuating circumstances, and honestly my t2i has never overheated on a shoot either (although I've heard stories, I've never seen it yet). Also for external sound- yes, the 7D requires that.

But to be honest, the 7D appears to no longer be considered a good example of shooting with DSLR anymore. Most industry analysts and film making blogs that once touted the 7D as a revolution have backpedaled and will recommend the 60D or even the t2i if you are OK with installing the hack. Or heck, even jumping to the Panasonic GH series sometimes. You won't really find many people recommending the 7D over the alternatives much these days.

As for the monitor... I incorrectly assumed you wanted the big monitor for focus assisting, which wouldn't be needed for a sit-down interview since the focus doesn't change. If its for outside sun glare, why not use a VF?
If you were using a big camera, isn't that what you would have been doing anyway? I don't see why needing a big monitor is a limitation of shooting with DSLR.

The ND filter I understand. Yes, you need to screw on an adapter for your camera if you want the best outdoors footage. But once you've screwed it on, do you need to take it off? I suppose if the lighting is lower at a different location you would take it off, and this is mildly more annoying than flipping an ND switch. Still, is that really as horrible and time consuming to make you never want to do it again?

Even though I agree that there are definitely times I would rather use a full sized cam, for 90% of the work I do (which includes a healthy dose of doc style shoots), the DSLR has proven fantastically useful and often more convenient than a full sized alternative if even just for size alone.

Meanwhile, I'd like to apologize if I offended you by calling your setup "overcomplicated". I just didn't understand the need for some of that equipment, especially if it was as much of a hassle as you describe!


vision_filmz said:
I would NEVER to documentary work with a Dslr and more specifically a t2i, as soon as you get that over heating warning you might as well kill yourself :angry:, also the 12 minute time limit kills you.
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Your t2i has overheated often? What were you doing with it? Mine never has yet, and I've filmed some live events with it. Are you sure it was an overheat stop and not buffer stop? Its a different icon, I think people confuse the two. Very often a slow or heavily fragmented card will stop because it can't write fast enough. This is usually rectified by a clean format.

I thought the 12 minute limit would be a problem too, but it turns out I never really film anything that long at a time. I have friends who use these for weddings, and if the time limitation and overheating were as bad as you say, I'd imagine they wouldn't still be using them!

Using ML does actually allow you to make recording longer (by reducing bit rate which may also have adverse effect on quality), but more importantly it allows auto-restart when the camera stops. I did a live event once with 2 t2i's, one on a tripod and one handheld for closeups, both set to auto-restart. I started filming at different intervals so when one camera has to stop for 3 seconds to restart, I have another camera to cut to during that time.
Granted I wouldn't shoot like this often (seems a little convoluted), but its quite workable without being afraid of "missing the shot" any more than with a standard camera.
 
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I have a 7D and an XHA1. The XH is just so convenient for setting up, zooming in, and overall use for filming. It's made for that. The audio is perfect (I use an Anzen external) and the 20 optical zoom is phenomenal. It can go as low as 1.6 aperture. When I use my 7D for filming it's always such a pain to setup, and focus etc. The the CF cards always fill up very quickly.
 
dishe said
Your t2i has overheated often? What were you doing with it? Mine never has yet, and I've filmed some live events with it. Are you sure it was an overheat stop and not buffer stop? Its a different icon, I think people confuse the two. Very often a slow or heavily fragmented card will stop because it can't write fast enough. This is usually rectified by a clean format.
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Well, I used to think people were full of it because it didn't happen to me either until I shot a doc. No kidding. It was not fun telling the producer we had to stop the interview because the camera overheated.

It happened to me 4 times shooting the doc. It definitely overheated and wasn't a buffer stop. The temp warning came up, the person was still talking so I had to keep shooting then finally it shut off. I thought to myself, damn I can't believe this is happening. How do explain to these people, oh I'm sorry we have to wait because my camera is hot. In this day and age they looked at my like.. what?

Dishe, eventhough it has never happened to you I'm not the first and it has happened to many. You just haven't been in the condition yet where it has. Also, I'm in California and it gets pretty sunny and hot so it can be a problem. We haven't even hit summer yet so wait till that comes. It's now happened to me while shooting and to me that's field tested and a fact. As for formatting I format every time I put the card in and start clean.

dishe said
Ok, to be fair, most of your complaints in this and the previous post have to do with the specific setup you are using, and are not necessarily indicitive of ALL DSLRs. The only reason I made a big deal about your statement was because you started with the post "I have worked on a doc and can tell you... next time I do it I am not using a DSLR", despite the possibility that your negative experience may have been avoided with a slightly different setup and choice of equipment.
For example, the 7D is more prone to overheating due to the dual processor design- the 60D and T2i aren't known to overheat so often. In fact, I've heard it claimed that the 60D doesn't overheat at all except during extenuating circumstances, and honestly my t2i has never overheated on a shoot either (although I've heard stories, I've never seen it yet). Also for external sound- yes, the 7D requires that.
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Then my complaint is valid. It is a setup due to what is needed to shoot on DSLR. Therefore what it takes to shoot on DSLR isn't ideal for doc work.
 
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draven4 said:
Well, I used to think people were full of it because it didn't happen to me either until I shot a doc. No kidding. It was not fun telling the producer we had to stop the interview because the camera overheated.
It happened to me 4 times shooting the doc. It definitely overheated and wasn't a buffer stop. The temp warning came up, the person was still talking so I had to keep shooting then finally it shut off. I thought to myself, damn I can't believe this is happening. How do explain to these people, oh I'm sorry we have to wait because my camera is hot. In this day and age they looked at my like.. what?
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Interesting.
I never assumed anyone was full of it. I'm aware that it has happened to people, especially with the 7D in particular because of the dual chip design. Knowing that in advance, I wouldn't use the 7D on a hot day in such a situation. The other models aren't as much of an issue, and particularly the 60D (which the OP is asking about) and GH2 have been claimed not to overheat by users. I can't vouch for it personally (especially since the 60D is so similar under the hood, it seems unlikely an assumption), but I've heard it listed as one of the pros compared to the 7D for both of those cameras.

There are also ways to prevent overheating- changing the battery or using an external battery seems to alleviate the problem rather quickly from what I understand. But again, its never been an issue for me. And it certainly doesn't seem to be a problem on all cameras (*cough* Panasonic *cough*).
Heck, my full sized cam has batteries that don't seem to hold a charge when the temp goes up. I've even had my DVX shut off once in the middle of someone speaking because the battery went from full to depleted in about 20 min in a little room without AC mid-August. Not fun, but something I had to be made aware of the hard way, and I still made it work.

Then my complaint is valid. It is a setup due to what is needed to shoot on DSLR. Therefore what it takes to shoot on DSLR isn't ideal for doc work.
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::scratches head::
I dunno, man, it seems like the exact OPPOSITE to me. You're saying that the 7D isn't ideal for doc work. That's one camera, and a camera that isn't even recommended for the job these days. There are, however, better suited DSLRs for it. The OP isn't even asking about the 7D, but rather the 60D, which users claim solves many of your problems out of the box. I'm not one to judge, but is it fair to judge ALL dslrs by your experience with that particular one?
 
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dishe said
I'm not one to judge, but is it fair to judge ALL dslrs by your experience with that particular one?
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No, you're right then. I guess it's not fair to judge all DSLR docs by my several experiences. It worked for you but I guess we're talking about different beasts, T2i vs 7d. Funny though because the post was a question about the 60d so I guess we're both talking about something he didn't ask about.

Anyway I'm not alone in thinking recommending when someone asks, if a DSLR or a true video cam should be used. Look at the posts above. But in all reality we can choose whatever we want. I just wanted to share my experiences that were negative so the original poster is aware and isn't caught off guard if he chooses to go the DSLR route and it happens to him. We as you could have told him all is great go for it and then he comes back with a later post saying... I completely missed some shots because my damn camera was overheating. And you'll be .. well it never happened to me.
 
I agree with draven4- that if I absolutely could only pick one tool for documentary work - where things can be unpredictable...changing lighting conditions, different subjects at varying distances where changing a lens may miss the shot or using the one you have chosen may not get the best shot, etc. - it would be the XHA1 over a DLSR. That being said dishe makes some interesting points about the 60D - It does have the articulating screen, making monitoring much easier than say a 7D's screen (and to be fair it's larger and way higher res than the XHA1) It also has manual audio level controls and the general consensus is that it is more resistant to overheating than some other models. It's also a subtle camera, which can possibly get you shots that a full-on camera could not get - People tend to notice more when it APPEARS as though someone's filming something serious - With a DLSR, it's like - just another guy taking photos.
I think with either system you'd definitely want to really KNOW your workflow like the back of your hand...It's interesting that dishe who is used to using the DLSR for doc projects has no issue with it....and there are those of us who think DLSR = narrative/music videos/etc.
The point is to make sure you know the pros and cons - which ever way you decide to go.
 
draven4 said:
But in all reality we can choose whatever we want. I just wanted to share my experiences that were negative so the original poster is aware and isn't caught off guard if he chooses to go the DSLR route and it happens to him. We as you could have told him all is great go for it and then he comes back with a later post saying... I completely missed some shots because my damn camera was overheating. And you'll be .. well it never happened to me.
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Fair enough.

No, you're right then. I guess it's not fair to judge all DSLR docs by my several experiences. It worked for you but I guess we're talking about different beasts, T2i vs 7d. Funny though because the post was a question about the 60d so I guess we're both talking about something he didn't ask about.
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Well, to be fair, I was merely using the T2i as an example to illustrate that not all DSLRs are like the 7D. It could have been a GH2 or 60D, but don't have as much experience with those. My point was merely not to nix ALL dslrs based on the 7D alone, for the OP and for you. ;)
 
I like this discussion with you though. It challenges me to think about what I have and I am taking into consideration if I am over complicating my work done on set so that next time I can improve the flow or not. So what you are saying in the end is good. I'd be stupid not re-evaluate based on your experiences. So in all seriousness thanks for still challenging what I'm saying. That's the point of these forums, to discuss.
 
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