New 4K low-light camera dilemma - please advise!

G

Geko

Active member
I am looking for a new 4K camera for low-light documentary work (caves) to replace a 1DC. The 24FPS is just not cutting it anymore, the huge file sizes are ridiculous. The priorities are:

1. Great low light performance
2. Pleasing colors (preferably on par with the 1DC)
3. At least 4K 60FPS internal
4. At least 12 stops DR, preferably 14
5. Good, modern codec
6. Great low light dual pixel autofocus
7. Use of our existing Canon L EF lenses, if possible, as we need to shoot wide.


I have been considering the 1DX II, but it is ancient now and we all know it's limitations, form factor, same codec, etc.

I have been researching for the past days but I am kind of lost as there is too much out there, but no real alternatives. I am also considering to move away from Canon due to the many problems we had with a first couple of 1DC units and the company's abysmal customer service (discussed elsewhere). I know how broad the question is, but still, I have to start somewhere, and possibly avoid the mistake of buying a 1DX, which will be replaced shortly by a newer model. But we need to start shooting next month.

The Canon XF705 actually looks very good, but the lens is not wide enough. We have to shoot at about 18mm 35 equivalent. It goes down to 25, which is too narrow.

Any ideas, Sony alternatives, etc. are welcome, it's a tough one.
 
IIRC, you had such a beautiful underwater footage of caves ruined by hot pixels and horrible Canon support?

Anyway, maybe this is what yo are looking for?

Scroll down and start reading from "Professional imaging with a triple lens camera system"...
 
I’d test the 1DX II with a custom picture style that brings up the blacks and lowers contrast a bit, the Fuji X-T3, and this https://www.newsshooter.com/2018/03...ty-gemini-5k-s35-low-light-sensor-red-epic-w/ .

EDIT: if you must have phase detect AF, choice is limited (delete Red from list) else also look at Sony FS7x and FS5 II (up to 120fps 4K).

Consider a used 1DX II to minimize depreciation.

If you use PP CC you can transcode to Cineform wavelet or MXF OP1a to save some space.
 
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Not sure there's anything that ticks all of your requirements, as mentioned the Fuji XT-3 is probably the closest, not sure how the AF is with adaptors and ef lenses.
The EVA-1 ticks all except AF and has a nicer imnage than the FS7 in my opinion, the upcoming PAnasonic S1 full frame looks promising and AF looks better than on other Panasonic cameras. WOuld need adaptors again though to use ef lenses. Panasonic GH5s hits all but great AF, would need lens adaptors too. Black Magic Pocket 4k if you can get hold of one, no AF though.
I don't work for Panasonic by the way, just still not many cameras do 4k 60p.
 
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If you are considering the 1DX and XF705 (around that price range) then maybe consider the C200 as well.

Checks all of the boxes except the non-RAW codecs may be a bit weak for you (and I'm assuming you don't want to shoot RAW since you're tired of the 1DC file sizes).

But for everything else it has you covered.
 
NorBro said:
If you are considering the 1DX and XF705 (around that price range) then maybe consider the C200 as well.

Checks all of the boxes except the non-RAW codecs may be a bit weak for you (and I'm assuming you don't want to shoot RAW since you're tired of the 1DC file sizes).

But for everything else it has you covered.
Click to expand...

Or a used C200- “vote with your wallet”.

If OP can wait till 2024 the A7S III will work ;)

How’s the A6400 / new AI AF / skintones?
 
I'm only a pro in the AF department...it's great!

Not sure I notice a tremendous difference in skintones as I don't pay too much attention to any from any cameras in today's world with hundreds of different looks/grades.
 
NorBro said:
I'm only a pro in the AF department...it's great!

Not sure I notice a tremendous difference in skintones as I don't pay too much attention to any from any cameras in today's world with hundreds of different looks/grades.
Click to expand...

Cool- will check out the A6400 in the near future. Regarding your comment in the X-T3 thread about (effectively) being burned by expensive cameras and now going for (effectively) best bang for buck (low end theory or LET term from GearSlutz): I'm feeling exactly the same way after selling the C300 II. After the deep dive on resolution and skintones, now want to work with video cameras that are fun to shoot with. Or put another way, where ergonomics/usability/quality are all really high and the annoyance factors are really low.

I think what happens after a while is we get tired/bored with our gear and there's an itch to get something new (and/or feel a bit ripped off on exaggerated specs). However we don't really need to get something brand new. I've been playing with my old Panasonic TM700 with new eyes and other than the loud fan (need to use an external mic), it's pretty fun to shoot with. IS is decent and with sufficient light it's probably OK for YouTube/vlogging (has an F1.5 Lecia lens haha!). Will see if I can make the footage look decent in post (Soderbergh made iPhones passable :) ). My camera work right now is mostly high-end stills (portraits- so skintones are still number one); waiting a bit before making more changes on the video side (an EOS R might replace the 80D soon; don't want to 'feed the criplefacturers' however do think it's important to feed local merchants (purchase from smaller/local vendors when possible)).

For the OP, for LET, if you need 4K 60P, good low light, a modern codec, and excellent image quality, the $1400 X-T3 is pretty much the best deal right now (will need native lenses to get usable video AF (currently)).
 
Thanks you all for the excellent advice!! Already a lot to research. Will chime back in soon :)
 
After taking all in it seems to boil down to 1DX MKII vs. C200, and at this point it gets quite difficult, as the only real advantage of the 1DX MKII for video seems to be the weather sealing. Which is kind of a big deal when working in caves, but not absolutely crucial.
The funny thing is, there does not seem to be a lot of actual real-world info about the c200 weather sealing. Does anyone know how well it fares in humid conditions? Also, am I missing something else comparing these two cameras for low light scenarios?
Ah yes, also the DPAF in the 1DX MKII seems to be better, although the C200 reportedly has some complex DPAF settings people normally don't adjust...
Any info by someone who has both cameras will be great.
 
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Geko said:
After taking all in it seems to boil down to 1DX MKII vs. C200, and at this point it gets quite difficult, as the only real advantage of the 1DX MKII for video seems to be the weather sealing. Which is kind of a big deal when working in caves, but not absolutely crucial.
The funny thing is, there does not seem to be a lot of actual real-world info about the c200 weather sealing. Does anyone know how well it fares in humid conditions? Also, am I missing something else comparing these two cameras for low light scenarios?
Ah yes, also the DPAF in the 1DX MKII seems to be better, although the C200 reportedly has some complex DPAF settings people normally don't adjust...
Any info by someone who has both cameras will be great.
Click to expand...

The C200 has a fan- so it's not weather sealed. Typically for video/cinema cams they put the camera in a plastic bag. Here's one for the C200: https://www.camrade.com/products/wetsuits-rain-covers/camrade-wetsuit-eos-c200

You can search for something similar if the factory weather-proofing of the 1DX II isn't enough, and of course these kinds of products (also for C200): https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/996724-REG/aquatech_10101_delphin_1d_sport_housing.html

Both cameras are pretty good in low light- in my studio experience, the C300 II appears to have more NR (even when off at -1) vs. the 1DX II; perhaps someone can comment on the C200.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=C200+low+light
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1DX+II+low+light

In you need super low light, you might also consider adding a Sony A7 III (if the 1DX II / C200 aren't good enough for your needs). Keep in mind that in very low light, AF isn't going to work, so even a used A7S II might be a good addition (IIRC, the A7 III was pretty close to the A7S II). Everyone's waiting for the A7S III which will provide class leading low light, AF, 4K60, 10-bit, etc. Who knows, it may have been delayed due to the Fuji X-T3, Nikon Zx etc.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a7+III+low+light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k6-B2H4XlE
 
Since you mentioned low light, it seems worth suggesting the Panasonic S1, which is supposed to be a killer at up to ISO 20,000 or something silly. Not sure on EF lens adaptors, but worth a look! J
 
jcs said:
The C200 has a fan- so it's not weather sealed. Typically for video/cinema cams they put the camera in a plastic bag. Here's one for the C200: https://www.camrade.com/products/wetsuits-rain-covers/camrade-wetsuit-eos-c200

You can search for something similar if the factory weather-proofing of the 1DX II isn't enough, and of course these kinds of products (also for C200): https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/996724-REG/aquatech_10101_delphin_1d_sport_housing.html

Both cameras are pretty good in low light- in my studio experience, the C300 II appears to have more NR (even when off at -1) vs. the 1DX II; perhaps someone can comment on the C200.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=C200+low+light
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=1DX+II+low+light

In you need super low light, you might also consider adding a Sony A7 III (if the 1DX II / C200 aren't good enough for your needs). Keep in mind that in very low light, AF isn't going to work, so even a used A7S II might be a good addition (IIRC, the A7 III was pretty close to the A7S II). Everyone's waiting for the A7S III which will provide class leading low light, AF, 4K60, 10-bit, etc. Who knows, it may have been delayed due to the Fuji X-T3, Nikon Zx etc.

https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=a7+III+low+light
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_k6-B2H4XlE
Click to expand...

Thanks a lot! Generally, the 1DC has amazing low ambient light performance - i.e. you can shoot in a cave cavers only with their headlights on at ISO's 800-3500 and end up with super clean no-noise beautiful footage after only some moderate PP work. So, having this in mind and since supposedly the C200 will be even better in low light with the same color feel, it should be very suitable. As for rain covers, they won't really block air humidity, will possibly introduce some overheating issues and will make gimbal work (Ronin S) very difficult (if at all). But then, humidity may not be such a big problem for a camera like C200, which will get somewhat worm anyway during shooting. Just random thoughts when I try to figure this all out...
 
Other than autofocus, the EVA1 outperforms the C200 on just about every criteria you listed. It's also considerably less expensive.
 
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