C200: Netflix Approved List: Is the lack of TC in the only reason it was snubbed?

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Fahnon

Well-known member
I was commenting on another corner of the net about the Netflix approved list, and brought up that the EVA-1 being accepted to the list was a big deal. Got me thinking and speculating about why the C200, which has internal RAW recording, was omitted when the C300 mk II is on the list and is working with the same sensor. At first glance I was only thinking about image quality alone because in narrative, shooting RAW isn't that big a deal (a doc would be tough; but probably overkill anyway). But what if the reason is more practical in that the C200 doesn't have TC built in? I've worked around that by using a pair of tentaclesyncs, but is Netflix thinking real world mid-budget narrative needs TC built in?

If it's not that, I honestly don't know what else it could be. Anyone else wanna speculate or have any insight?
 
Fahnon said:
I was commenting on another corner of the net about the Netflix approved list, and brought up that the EVA-1 being accepted to the list was a big deal. Got me thinking and speculating about why the C200, which has internal RAW recording, was omitted when the C300 mk II is on the list and is working with the same sensor. At first glance I was only thinking about image quality alone because in narrative, shooting RAW isn't that big a deal (a doc would be tough; but probably overkill anyway). But what if the reason is more practical in that the C200 doesn't have TC built in? I've worked around that by using a pair of tentaclesyncs, but is Netflix thinking real world mid-budget narrative needs TC built in?

If it's not that, I honestly don't know what else it could be. Anyone else wanna speculate or have any insight?
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I am working on two documentary films targeted specifically at Netflix. Both shot predominantly on the C200 in RAW. I don't really care that the camera doesn't meet their commissioned programming specs, my chances of ever being commisioned by Netflix are relatively small. If I am ever lucky enough to be commissioned by them, I will gladly use whatever camera they have on the list that qualifies, I wouldn't care if the C200 didn't, plenty of other good cameras on their list. As far as why they won't put the C200 on, I have no idea.
 
Netflix has a rigorous testing process; it's not just based on a spec list. Part of the qualification is that the approved mode for shooting on the camera must be a practical one. Perhaps - and this is purely speculation - Netflix did not consider shooting a production for the service in Canon RAW Light was a practical concept for their producers. That would be the only mode that would qualify, just as on the A1 the only mode that qualifies is All-I 400mb 10-bit 422. It's possible that the lack of proper timecode or some other factor contributed to the decision. Again, it is a rigorous testing process with actual test shoots and post work with the camera.
 
I think what roils some is that the Netflix decree ignores content and places technical specs above all else. The decree says that Netflix doesn't care how amazing the content or how compelling the story, the technical specs take precedence. The work may be the most amazing, revelatory, emotionally compelling, cinematic content ever produced but if it is one digital bit shy of the specification for image resolution, Netflix doesn't want any part of it. Thanks, but no thanks. The decree supersedes art with "dumb" Math. It places the blind mathematical equation above all else. It is akin to declaring that you won't read any book that is less than 1000 pages. Or declaring that you won't go to any art museum that has less than 50,000 items on exhibit. Declaring that you won't listen to any composition of less than 7 minutes in length. Or declaring that you aren't open to falling in love with any woman whose boobs are less than 44DD. :)
 
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JPNola said:
I think what roils some is that the Netflix decree ignores content and places technical specs above all else. The decree says that Netflix doesn't care how amazing the content or how compelling the story, the technical specs take precedence. The work may be the most amazing, revelatory, emotionally compelling, cinematic content ever produced but if it is one digital bit shy of the specification for image resolution, Netflix doesn't want any part of it. Thanks, but no thanks. The decree supersedes art with "dumb" Math. It places the blind mathematical equation above all else. It is akin to declaring that you won't read any book that is less than 1000 pages. Or declaring that you won't go to any art museum that has less than 50,000 items on exhibit. Declaring that you won't listen to any composition of less than 7 minutes in length. Or declaring that you aren't open to falling in love with any woman whose boobs are less than 44DD. :)
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Perfect

Matt Turner said:
I've watched a few Netflix originals and I'm fairly certain there's no danger of this happening.
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Perfect
 
JPNola said:
I think what roils some is that the Netflix decree ignores content and places technical specs above all else. The decree says that Netflix doesn't care how amazing the content or how compelling the story, the technical specs take precedence. The work may be the most amazing, revelatory, emotionally compelling, cinematic content ever produced but if it is one digital bit shy of the specification for image resolution, Netflix doesn't want any part of it. Thanks, but no thanks. The decree supersedes art with "dumb" Math. It places the blind mathematical equation above all else. It is akin to declaring that you won't read any book that is less than 1000 pages. Or declaring that you won't go to any art museum that has less than 50,000 items on exhibit. Declaring that you won't listen to any composition of less than 7 minutes in length. Or declaring that you aren't open to falling in love with any woman whose boobs are less than 44DD. :)
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That isn’t my understanding of Netflix’s reasoning or policy at all. Way I understand it, if you’re producing your own content and Netflix sees it and wants to distribute it they will buy it from you regardless of what it was shot on. But if they’re financing your production and it’s a Netflix Original from jump, they want you to use one of the cameras that gives them the most flexibility as a platform. They want to be able to offer your show or movie in true 4K and HDR because there are people like me who invested in a 4K/HDR/Atmos setup, pay a premium for content shot that way. If you look at it from Netflix’s perspective, that is to say people who make more money by offering higher resolution content, then it does make sense to make sure anything you have a hand in producing is shot in the way that makes you the most money.

It’s less like a person that won’t fall in love with someone that doesn’t have particular physical attributes (shallow), and more like if a person were somehow literally constructing a perfect mate and made them perfect (practical, and the plot of Weird Science).
 
Mitch Gross said:
Netflix has a rigorous testing process; it's not just based on a spec list. Part of the qualification is that the approved mode for shooting on the camera must be a practical one. Perhaps - and this is purely speculation - Netflix did not consider shooting a production for the service in Canon RAW Light was a practical concept for their producers. That would be the only mode that would qualify, just as on the A1 the only mode that qualifies is All-I 400mb 10-bit 422. It's possible that the lack of proper timecode or some other factor contributed to the decision. Again, it is a rigorous testing process with actual test shoots and post work with the camera.
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As always I respect your opinion Mitch, but the only way I can see CRL being the issue is if they only tested it before if got industry support from Adobe and Blackmagic. As of now, there’s literally no difference between working with CRL from a C200 and Cinema DNG from the Ursa, and that’s on the approved list. If that’s the case, it’s totally possible they’ll re-test and add it to the list I suppose. Now that we’re talking about it, I’m super curious as to their reasoning.
 
Fahnon said:
That isn’t my understanding of Netflix’s reasoning or policy at all. Way I understand it, if you’re producing your own content and Netflix sees it and wants to distribute it they will buy it from you regardless of what it was shot on. But if they’re financing your production and it’s a Netflix Original from jump, they want you to use one of the cameras that gives them the most flexibility as a platform. They want to be able to offer your show or movie in true 4K and HDR because there are people like me who invested in a 4K/HDR/Atmos setup, pay a premium for content shot that way. If you look at it from Netflix’s perspective, that is to say people who make more money by offering higher resolution content, then it does make sense to make sure anything you have a hand in producing is shot in the way that makes you the most money.

It’s less like a person that won’t fall in love with someone that doesn’t have particular physical attributes (shallow), and more like if a person were somehow literally constructing a perfect mate and made them perfect (practical, and the plot of Weird Science).
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Dude, you get it. It still cracks me up that 99.976%% of the people who whine about the Netflix specs everywhere WILL NEVER BE COMMISSIONED BY THEM!!!! And if you are commissioned by them, big deal, you rent a camera package that they specify. Capitalism at it's finest. Who cares if my camera or other good cameras out there don't meet their origination specs? Heck, if they wanted to, they could put out a single camera spec, that they will only allow the Arri 65LF for all of their content. Period. It's their checkbook, why do people get so bent about this? These specs only matter if they hire you to make their content. As for the real world, shoot it on your iPhone and if it's well done enough and compelling, Netflix will write you a huge check for your iPhone masterpiece. Esepcailly if your last name is Soderbergh or Scorsese ;-) Like everything else in Hollywood, it's who you are, who you know and how much money you can make for a given entity. If you go through any front door in Hollywood, you are rebuffed. Since everyone is a filmmaker now, they have to have gates to keep and they do. If you know someone or someone inside knows you, you have entree, that's how the business works.
 
Fahnon said:
That isn’t my understanding of Netflix’s reasoning or policy at all. Way I understand it, if you’re producing your own content and Netflix sees it and wants to distribute it they will buy it from you regardless of what it was shot on. But if they’re financing your production and it’s a Netflix Original from jump, they want you to use one of the cameras that gives them the most flexibility as a platform. They want to be able to offer your show or movie in true 4K and HDR because there are people like me who invested in a 4K/HDR/Atmos setup, pay a premium for content shot that way. If you look at it from Netflix’s perspective, that is to say people who make more money by offering higher resolution content, then it does make sense to make sure anything you have a hand in producing is shot in the way that makes you the most money.

It’s less like a person that won’t fall in love with someone that doesn’t have particular physical attributes (shallow), and more like if a person were somehow literally constructing a perfect mate and made them perfect (practical, and the plot of Weird Science).
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puredrifting said:
Dude, you get it. It still cracks me up that 99.976%% of the people who whine about the Netflix specs everywhere WILL NEVER BE COMMISSIONED BY THEM!!!! And if you are commissioned by them, big deal, you rent a camera package that they specify. Capitalism at it's finest. Who cares if my camera or other good cameras out there don't meet their origination specs? Heck, if they wanted to, they could put out a single camera spec, that they will only allow the Arri 65LF for all of their content. Period. It's their checkbook, why do people get so bent about this? These specs only matter if they hire you to make their content. As for the real world, shoot it on your iPhone and if it's well done enough and compelling, Netflix will write you a huge check for your iPhone masterpiece. Esepcailly if your last name is Soderbergh or Scorsese ;-) Like everything else in Hollywood, it's who you are, who you know and how much money you can make for a given entity. If you go through any front door in Hollywood, you are rebuffed. Since everyone is a filmmaker now, they have to have gates to keep and they do. If you know someone or someone inside knows you, you have entree, that's how the business works.
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Yeppers...

I don't shoot narrative. I don't shoot docs. And I will probably never shoot anything that will appear on Netflix. But I have been in the situation where a client said "We want you on this project, buy this camera." Guess what I did. I bought the camera. And the work that I did with that camera grossed almost 10x its cost within the first year. And we're not talking about a $2K BlackMagic camera... Lol.

Everybody whines about Netflix's acquisition mandate, but it's not like they're telling people to shoot on iPhones and handycams. Their shows are being shot on the likes of RED's, VariCam 35's, F55's and Alexa 65's. My Lord, you'd think the way some people react that they're telling people they have to shoot on a 1987 Zenith VHS camcorder.

No, resolution is not everything. Far from it. But the original shows that I have watched(and do watch) all look pretty damn good.
 
The complaints on this thread show an inherent lack of understanding of the business. Every major network/exhibitor/studio/whatever has technical requirements. Netflix is unique in two ways: (1) it's huge so people are really paying attention and (2) the requirements are published for all to see.

Before Netflix became big, everybody seemed to care the most about either the Discovery Networks specs or the BBC's. That's because those two companies connected to a lot of original content across various platforms, so it was important to meet their qualifications. Guess what -- it still is.

Absolutely no one is forcing you to adhere to these specs if you're making your own stuff. These are requirements only if you already have a contract to produce content for that company. These are a part of that contractual obligation, just like thousands of other obligations to which both parties must adhere.

If you are an independent filmmaker and you hope to sell your FINISHED WORK to Netflix, then these requirements do not directly apply to you. That said you will likely have an easier time of it in negotiations if you do follow these guidelines, but it is not a strict minimum requirement. Want to get paid a decent amount for your work? Don't set up barriers for yourself.

One major part of the requirements from Netflix is that it wants a LOG or even RAW master edit in at minimum 4K 10-bit 422 and a certain mbps data rate (I can't recall the number off the top of my head). The reason is simple and logical: Netflix is all about the longevity of its library and may wish to re-master the show in HDR or who-knows-what finish format in the future. It makes sense but boy have I heard people scream about it. Well it's part of the contract and you best plan for it properly. And if you want to sell something to Netflix later than you'll be in a much better position if you do the same.

Honestly, I can't recall the last time I was involved with a project for a major media company where there wasn't an expressed technical requirements ryder to the contract that laid out deliverables, minimum production specs and a host of details. They generally aren't particularly long documents and if you have a really good reason for wanting to step outside it in specific circumstances then they're open to discussion. That's stuff like "we need a drone shot where it's small enough to fly through this window into the abandoned nuclear power plant but that means the recording will only be X," or "the cheetahs only come out at night so the only camera sensitive enough is Y" or "the only camera fast enough to shoot at 500,000fps can only do it at resolution Z" and so forth. (BTW, I've been involved in all of those particular examples.)

As for why the C200 has not been approved, I really don't know but offered some possibilities. This is not something y'all argue with Netflix over. It's none of your business. I'm sure my friends over at Canon discussed the matter with Netflix just as we at Panasonic work with the company. Canon has several cameras that are approved and so does Panasonic. Sorry it's not the one you so happen to own, but that's not Netflix's problem.
 
It's funny that the ones screaming against this the most loudly are guys on a message board that will probably never get within 500 miles of producing narrative content for Netflix.

Hell guys, go pull up some of the requirements for programming and delivery for PBS. Netflix seems like a loosey-goosey, anything-goes party at Burning Man, in comparison.
 
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PBS Red Book was the Bible for quite a few years. Delivery requirements are nothing new and I agree, it's because Netflix went public with them whereas the Discovery requirements are or used to be on the Producers Portal which most people don't know about and many of the other outlets only let you in on the requirements behind their firewalled internal content. As far as the ASC, I am surprised the DPs are so concerned, camera requirements are usually more of a producer issue as far as requirements. I've interviewed several DPs/ASC/BSC members who had to use their "not favorite" camera because of politics like this. Most cameras that most ASC members would specify or want to use themselves are on the list other than the none 65/LF Arris, but that's been discussed before, it is a bit ridiculous you can't shoot an Alex or Mini unless you are Scorsese, but their checkbook, their rules.
 
puredrifting said:
Dude, you get it. It still cracks me up that 99.976%% of the people who whine about the Netflix specs everywhere WILL NEVER BE COMMISSIONED BY THEM!!!! And if you are commissioned by them, big deal, you rent a camera package that they specify.
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This is a very fair point but I think many people are interested in the list because of the possible knock-on effects on other broadcasters' delivery requirements in the future. One example was the BBC NHU following Netflix's lead and specifying 6K Red Dragon acquisition. If you're investing in an Amira and amortizing it over a 4 year period, you want to know that you'll still be able to deliver with it down the road. Netflix is now so big, other broadcasters are slowly following their lead.

If you're a YouTube vlogger or you're shooting your own material for Vimeo, then obviously it makes no difference.
 
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