Native 24P/25p settings/problems discussion

Nevermind. I take back what I said in my earlier reply! I just got done looking at some of the footage I shot for a short film I'm making. It shows one of my actors sitting in a chair. The first day I shot him with the GH13, I was on bitrate settings of 50,52,70 and native 24p. The second day that I shot the same actor in the same setting, I had switched over to 50,52,70 and 24/60i. Well, after looking at the footage in Premiere Pro CS5, it is obvious that the native 24p footage IS better!

The 24/60i footage has lots of jagged edges wherever there are horizontal lines in the footage, like on his glasses, and the chair he is sitting in. The native 24p footage has NONE of this! Zip, zilch, zero!

Also, the color really does look a little better in the native 24p footage. So, my question is, can I get rid of those jagged edges on the 24/60i footage? I'm guessing it has to do with the interlaced frames since the jagged edges only show up on horizontal lines and not on vertical lines. I tried "deinterlace" in Premiere but, nothing changed. Am I doing it wrong in Premiere? Can someone who knows Premiere help me solve this problem or am I stuck with these jagged edges?

Anyway, I changed my settings to 40,50,60 with native 24p and will be shooting the rest of the film with those settings. Today, I only got one camera freeze with those settings and that was when I was shooting a static shot of a shopping cart. The rest of the day, using a tripod, I got no errors.
 
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Well....just got around to trying the staic shot of death...and guess what....my camera had that card read error for the first time. It happened 4 out of 5 times with static trees and shrubs in bright conditions. In everything else it runs perfect with 24p....but I sure thought I was special for a minute there :) Anyways...it's not a problem because 99% of my shots have movement in them.
 
Ian-T said:
Well....just got around to trying the staic shot of death...and guess what....my camera had that card read error for the first time. It happened 4 out of 5 times with static trees and shrubs in bright conditions. In everything else it runs perfect with 24p....but I sure thought I was special for a minute there :) Anyways...it's not a problem because 99% of my shots have movement in them.
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Svecher did testing with new patches. If I read into it right, it seems that this problem is getting pecked at...

If so, why has no one talked about this other than svecher ......?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2042681&postcount=32

Pappas
 
PappasArts said:
If so, why has no one talked about this other than svecher ......?

http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2042681&postcount=32

Pappas
Click to expand...

I asked about it too a couple of posts before in the same thread and got no response either so i figured we had accepted it a a bug of the AVCHD encoder and moved on. But then the 2 new patches (1 and 2) we released in PTools v 3.3D

Then modulr did a test and nothing since, so i guess we just sit on it for now until Tester gets some of the new tools he's been after.
 
Filmkid2003 said:
Nevermind. I take back what I said in my earlier reply! I just got done looking at some of the footage I shot for a short film I'm making. It shows one of my actors sitting in a chair. The first day I shot him with the GH13, I was on bitrate settings of 50,52,70 and native 24p. The second day that I shot the same actor in the same setting, I had switched over to 50,52,70 and 24/60i. Well, after looking at the footage in Premiere Pro CS5, it is obvious that the native 24p footage IS better!

The 24/60i footage has lots of jagged edges wherever there are horizontal lines in the footage, like on his glasses, and the chair he is sitting in. The native 24p footage has NONE of this! Zip, zilch, zero!

Also, the color really does look a little better in the native 24p footage. So, my question is, can I get rid of those jagged edges on the 24/60i footage? I'm guessing it has to do with the interlaced frames since the jagged edges only show up on horizontal lines and not on vertical lines. I tried "deinterlace" in Premiere but, nothing changed. Am I doing it wrong in Premiere? Can someone who knows Premiere help me solve this problem or am I stuck with these jagged edges?

Anyway, I changed my settings to 40,50,60 with native 24p and will be shooting the rest of the film with those settings. Today, I only got one camera freeze with those settings and that was when I was shooting a static shot of a shopping cart. The rest of the day, using a tripod, I got no errors.
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What deinterlacer - pulldown removal program did you use, some of them introduce artifacts similar to what you describe. As I posted last year.
 
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Hey Phillip, I am using the deinterlacer in Premiere Pro CS5. According to the Adobe website, you can edit native AVCHD files in Premiere without having to deinterlace and transcode but, when I place my 24/60i footage into the Premiere timeline, the jagged edges are still there. When I click on "Always Deinterlace" NOTHING HAPPENS! The jagged edges are still there. Also, when I go to "Interpret Footage", the "24p Pulldown Removal" is all grayed out so, it won't let me click on it at all. I don't understand why I can't click on the 24p Pulldown Removal to get rid of the pulldown in my 24/60i GH13 footage! This is very frustrating. I must be doing something wrong. Can someone who is familiar with Premiere Pro CS5 please help? Thanks.
 
when you edit in cs5, it detects whether or not it needs pulldown removed automatically removes it. and, just assuming here, the jagged edges are your real-time rendering just not fast enough.
 
rambooc1 said:
I asked about it too a couple of posts before in the same thread and got no response either so i figured we had accepted it a a bug of the AVCHD encoder and moved on. But then the 2 new patches (1 and 2) we released in PTools v 3.3D

Then modulr did a test and nothing since, so i guess we just sit on it for now until Tester gets some of the new tools he's been after.
Click to expand...

Well there are new patches. The results in that post imply better 24pn performance with the new patches- however it's been quite silent about them in the new Ptool released days ago. Another post below tried the new patches and said it didn't fail where it used to with the new patches..

Here's another test report: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2043202&postcount=33

Pappas
 
PappasArts said:
Well there are new patches. The results in that post imply better 24pn performance with the new patches- however it's been quite silent about them in the new Ptool released days ago. Another post below tried the new patches and said it didn't fail where it used to with the new patches..

Here's another test report: http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showpost.php?p=2043202&postcount=33

Pappas
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Yeah i saw that, he did say the Mud had returned with the A settings, so going to try increasing bitrate beyond that and see what happens.

Thanks Pappas
 
adammada said:
PTool 3.40d
native 24p - AVCHD-Settings: 50, 60, 42, 70, 78
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Adam, something not quite right there with the ghosting on the leg movements. What shutter did you shoot this at?

Or did you export at a different frame rate or something?
 
rambooc1 said:
Yeah i saw that, he did say the Mud had returned with the A settings, so going to try increasing bitrate beyond that and see what happens.

Thanks Pappas
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""(though it doesn't look to be quite as severe, but these are casual outdoor tests)""

It appears to be less, and if it's a more stable 24pn from the first reports- it's all win win up the later either way. These new patch settings with 24P/60i might make that non-native perform better too at even higher bit rates than we can go now..

Look forward to your results.

Pappas
 
adammada said:
PTool 3.40d
native 24p - AVCHD-Settings: 50, 60, 42, 70, 78
Click to expand...

First Adam- Nice video- has very nice colors and a smooth look. Very beautiful beach, indeed.

The numbers are wrong- the first two numbers are higher than the third- which is what we have been told not to do in the past . Is this the reason for the fare errors in the video?

It's very easy- just look at the suggested numeric patterns given to you in Ptool "A" thru "C" settings- Follow that numerical increases- there is a reason why the numbers go up in scale from beginning to end- Best to follow that pattern.

Adam it would be good if you posted a report- Like did you have card failures/write errors on high detail static/motion shots? Did you have failures prior to the new patches that your not having now? Observations are important.This forum is a research technology project- and is only as good as the testers who report there research findings back to the rest of the community.

Try these:
AVCHD-Settings: 50, 50, 52, 70, 78


Pappas
http://www.pbase.com/Arrfilms
http://www.PappasArts.com
 
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PappasArts said:
rambooc1,

Did these settings in the past give you error's with 60i/24?

Pappas
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Yes, with the same manual lens and same card, that's why i think this is significant. Native 25p also fails on original Pana FW bitrate settings

C settings now = no errors and higher low level ( that was my result anyway)

Maybe Tester can explain what Preset1 does?

R
 
philiplipetz said:
What deinterlacer - pulldown removal program did you use, some of them introduce artifacts similar to what you describe. As I posted last year.
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I didn't use any deinterlacer or pulldown removal programs. I just imported my GH1 footage into Premiere Pro CS5 because the Adobe website says Premiere Pro CS5 edits AVCHD natively without the need for transcoding. I guess I have to go and buy Neoscene after all???? Is that right?
 
rambooc1 said:
Yes, with the same manual lens and same card, that's why i think this is significant. Native 25p also fails on original Pana FW bitrate settings

C settings now = no errors and higher low level ( that was my result anyway)

Maybe Tester can explain what Preset1 does?

R
Click to expand...

Well it will be interesting to see as more people get with the new PTOOL and try it, how it does. Funny it was a mad house with crazy traffic not long ago, and now it's become a partial ghost town here.

Pappas
 
unfortunately that doesn't necessarily mean that it works well. I've always seen better footage when the pulldown removal is done beforehand.
 
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