My thoughts on sensor size

Daniel L.

Well-known member
Disclaimer: This is not a 5D vs GH1 thread. Anything mentioning the GH1 is only meant for reference.

Personally, I love the full frame sensor size. It allows so much freedom for composition and I would hate to return to anything less. However, some day you may want a longer lens and deeper DoF. There are many well known ways to do this, but I'm going to cover an alternative not often considered.

This will no doubt be very obvious to a lot of people, but may also be helpful to some too. It can be beneficial to have an option to reduce the format.

If you are using the 5D Mark II and for whatever reason are looking for a format closer to the standard Academy 35mm film size consider cropping the 1080p video to 720p. Making the compromise to use 720p over 1080p is quite a sacrifice but if that's what it takes to get the shot it may not be such a bad idea.

Here is an example:

sizes2.jpg

Hope I did all the math right. This should be relatively accurate.

Ideally, the choice to crop should be one made on set and not in post. You will have to adjust your framing and should add new safety guides. This will have some advantages over native 720p:

- Adjustment of framing in post: By cropping you still have image off to the sides which will allow you some adjustment of framing in post. If you got a light in the shot, microphone, crew, something distracting.. Having the freedom to later change composition can be very useful for many things.

- Reduced rolling shutter distortion: Cropping the video will reduce rolling shutter skew or "jello". This can make a considerable difference if you anticipate a difficult shot, or a clumsy camera operator.

- Image Stabilization without compromising resolution: Image stabilization works by cropping a section of the video and translating the crop to compensate for unwanted camera moves. Problem is that it generally reduces resolution once the video is scaled back up again to fit the frame. A 1080p video cropped to 720p can reduce the need to scale.

- Improved image quality and performance: By scaling the 1080p image to 720p you get a much higher quality 720p video. It will appear to have less noise, less artifacts, and sharper than native 720p. This will remove the crop, but is an option if ever needed.
 
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Well first your 35mm Academy frame has incorrect dimensions... As much as I like FF, that middle ground sensor is better for narrative. You can obtain wide or long shots framing with a few degrees of lensing choices. FF can be more of a hassle.


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the full frame has a beautiful look to it - for SOME shots.

especially with the low light abilities of the camera. However , I don't think
I like it for all purpose.

And cropping to 720? hhhhmmmm - now your comparing neck and neck with
the GH-1, since that's the workaround for that cam - lol.
 
Daniel: Your idea is flawed. Rather than cropping the image, which results in reduced resolution, why not just resize the video from 1080P to 720P? I won't improve the jello effect, but that is not serious enough to require for the massive lose of resolution by doing a crop.
 
the full frame has a beautiful look to it - for SOME shots.

especially with the low light abilities of the camera. However , I don't think
I like it for all purpose.
Well that's fine but what are you basing your opinion on? How much video have you shot with full frame?

What was described here is an alternative to closing the aperture and using a longer lens. It's an option, you don't have to do it. You can make full frame DoF as deep as the HV20 if you want. Which format is best is subjective, it's a creative decision. People shoot narrative on IMAX for crying out loud. More would if it was not so expensive.

Which format is best is not even the topic of this thread, how did that even come up.. ?

And cropping to 720? hhhhmmmm - now your comparing neck and neck with the GH-1, since that's the workaround for that cam - lol.
Cropping 1080p and shooting native 720p are not the same. I was hoping my post was clear on that.
 
Daniel: Your idea is flawed. Rather than cropping the image, which results in reduced resolution, why not just resize the video from 1080P to 720P? I won't improve the jello effect, but that is not serious enough to require for the massive lose of resolution by doing a crop.

I did mention resizing the video from 1080p to 720p:
- Improved image quality and performance: By scaling the 1080p image to 720p you get a much higher quality 720p video. It will appear to have less noise, less artifacts, and sharper than native 720p. This will remove the crop, but is an option if ever needed.

I think you misunderstood. This thread was about the advantages of cropping. It's not about the advantages of 720p. If you simply resize you lose the effects of the crop and are left with a 720p full frame image. The idea was to convert Full Frame to something closer to Academy 35mm...
 
I understand exactly what you are saying.

One could use this method with lens' that are not big enough to cover the full frame sensor. I don't know why people are confused.

Good looking out.
 
Daniel: Your idea is flawed. Rather than cropping the image, which results in reduced resolution, why not just resize the video from 1080P to 720P? I won't improve the jello effect, but that is not serious enough to require for the massive lose of resolution by doing a crop.

??? How is his idea flawed in any way? Perhaps you misread or misinterpeted what he's posted...

It makes complete sense outside of the Jello reduction (that can't be helped by post cropping) and image flaws (aliasing will look either larger or more apparent, I think).

Other than that, cropping an Academy frame (which probably won't be a 720, but pxiels don't really matter honestly, as long as it can be cropped or adjust to fit a 1080 or 720 as far as dimensions go) is completely valid.

I get what you're saying Daniel. It's no versus this or that, just another option or way to work for those interested. Sucks when people take your posts out of context or start chopping your preference/opinion down.
 
Well that's fine but what are you basing your opinion on? How much video have you shot with full frame?

What was described here is an alternative to closing the aperture and using a longer lens. It's an option, you don't have to do it. You can make full frame DoF as deep as the HV20 if you want. Which format is best is subjective, it's a creative decision. People shoot narrative on IMAX for crying out loud. More would if it was not so expensive.

Which format is best is not even the topic of this thread, how did that even come up.. ?


Cropping 1080p and shooting native 720p are not the same. I was hoping my post was clear on that.

hi,

well I may indeed be confused. I would like to see examples of this idea
you propose. maybe it's the holy grail. However, cropping + frame interpolation
from 30p to 24 is a lot of work to me.

I'm basing THE LOOK on what I've seen.

Reverie type footage looks awesome. NIGHT - LOW LIGHT. WIDE ANGLE. LONG SHOTS.

However, with the Red comparison tests, one can see the 5d FF LOVES WIDE. that + its very shallow DOF is almost a deal breaker for me.
 
And cropping to 720? hhhhmmmm - now your comparing neck and neck with
the GH-1, since that's the workaround for that cam - lol.


Actually you don't crop the 5DMKII 1080, you down convert in to 720. The image gets nice a snappy even more and reduces it's nasty image aliasing...



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@sunburst: You are not the first person to complain about FF being too shallow for them. But honestly, I don't get it. If you have the ability to obtain a very wide DOF then what is the problem? ALso, if you are coming from using DOF adapters...then this should be very familiar territory for you ....right?
 
@sunburst: You are not the first person to complain about FF being too shallow for them. But honestly, I don't get it. If you have the ability to obtain a very wide DOF then what is the problem? ALso, if you are coming from using DOF adapters...then this should be very familiar territory for you ....right?


I came from Adapters and Vistavision just looks weird, but it can be useful on the wide end of things. Most of the time you shoot at Academy FOV on Adapters, though.

The issue isn't really an issue, but just a preference/opinion on the matter. I think people who've already been shooting @ Academy are more apprehensive to change over because they know what sort of look to expect with. The look is dramatically different without adapting the FF (stopping down, lens selection, etc) to an academy "style".

And vast isn't an exaggeration, to me. It really is noticably different.
 
@sunburst: You are not the first person to complain about FF being too shallow for them. But honestly, I don't get it. If you have the ability to obtain a very wide DOF then what is the problem? ALso, if you are coming from using DOF adapters...then this should be very familiar territory for you ....right?

well the problem for me is two fold. Bear in mind I don't shoot with crews.

One, the workflow of the gh-1 is so much better FOR ONE PERSON shoots.
and the focusing, compared to the 5d sounds so much better for what I would
use if for. { granted I've never shot with either cam yet - lol } However,
it's obvious from so many vids I've seen, the 5d FF is a bear for run and gun focus.

Second - those types of shots, I think, the 5d is killer for - WIDE VISTAS, are probably awesome for most people here. For me? no. I don't even need. Why - I likely would opt for matte paintings.
 
It makes complete sense outside of the Jello reduction (that can't be helped by post cropping)

Hi Kholi,

By reducing the vertical resolution you also reduce the skew. Imagine this: You have a 1080p shot at 50mm with a telephone pole leaning by say ~10 degrees. Now crop it to 720p. Your lens is almost twice longer (100mm), but the telephone pole is leaning the same 10 degrees.

The rolling shutter distortion is now reduced by a factor of two. (Note: Really it's not a factor of two, because 720p is not half of 1080p.. but it is close.)
 
Hi Kholi,

By reducing the vertical resolution you also reduce the skew. Imagine this: You have a 1080p shot at 50mm with a telephone pole leaning by say ~10 degrees. Now crop it to 720p. Your lens is almost twice longer (100mm), but the telephone pole is leaning the same 10 degrees.

The rolling shutter distortion is now reduced by a factor of two. (Note: Really it's not a factor of two, because 720p is not half of 1080p.. but it is close.)


I was thinking more in-line with the idea that you would still compose for the full 720P Frame. Like you'd put guides on the LCD, then move back and away from the subject to compose properly for the Academy instead of just composing for Full Frame then cropping.

But, I think it should be tested. I haven't done it yet so I can only theorize myself, however it would be nice to get someone to test it out.

I may try it before I sell my MKii tomorrow.
 
Daniel that's probably why the GH-1, while shooting 720/60p has a much better handle on skew than when shooting in 24p/1080 mode.
 
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it's obvious from so many vids I've seen, the 5d FF is a bear for run and gun focus.

Second - those types of shots, I think, the 5d is killer for - WIDE VISTAS, are probably awesome for most people here. For me? no. I don't even need. Why - I likely would opt for matte paintings.

MKii for wide Vistas and such is the balls all. Cat's ass? Indeed. Landscape is pretty bad-ass with this camera.

In defense of the MKii, most people are trying to shoot wide open for some reason. If you start with a Slow Zoom or Prime you'll be miles ahead of them and pulling focus won't be AS bad.

Stopping down further makes it easier as well. Where we're talking about normally shooting 2~2.8 splits @ Academy FOV, now you're more like 4~5.6 Split to match @ FF/Vistavision FOV. Maybe more.

Seems like it's just a mass preference for people to want to shoot wide open with this thing.
 
Daniel that's probably why the GH-1, while shooting 720/60p has a much better handle on skew than when shooting in 24p/1080 mode.

That's an In_Camera thing, not post. In_camera is different than cropping out of an image in post.

And it also has to do with Sensor Scan Rate, not specifically 720 vs 1080.
 
That's an In_Camera thing, not post. In_camera is different than cropping out of an image in post.

And it also has to do with Sensor Scan Rate, not specifically 720 vs 1080.
Ok. I gotcha.

Question though (and this might sound stupid) but when the same camera shoots both 720 and 1080 do they use the same area on the sensor to make both pictures? Or is the 720p image obtained from a smaller part of the sensor?

My thought is if it uses a smaller portion of the sensor to make 720p then that's why the skew will not be as bad.
 
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