My question to Canon...
- Thread starter milvid
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Jester2138
Well-known member
Because we're buying 5D II's and 7D's like crazy.
dang. spot on.
atomick
Active member
I'd think that you'd really want to increase the frontside bus within the camera and you'd need to address rolling shutter...neither of which are cheap or simple. To get the same image quality of a 7D or 5D into an XH-style machine, you'd need to either make your CCD's radically low-noise or your CMOS smaller. Increasing bandwidth can be done, but is pricey; changing how sensors render reality is quite the undertaking. Suddenly it brings the prices of things like the SI and Phantom HD cameras into some perspective... 
Self-cannibalization (a new products reduces sales of an existing product) does happen in the tech markets; Apple's done it a few times. It's not always smart, but it also depends on the vision at the top of the company as to whether or not cannibalizing sales makes sense in terms of long-term customer loyalty wins.
Self-cannibalization (a new products reduces sales of an existing product) does happen in the tech markets; Apple's done it a few times. It's not always smart, but it also depends on the vision at the top of the company as to whether or not cannibalizing sales makes sense in terms of long-term customer loyalty wins.
Canon has time to perfect such a camera without any broken promises and delayed ship dates. I believe that they have been working on it for some time and because they do not have an "Epic" camera to produce first, they will anounce it and the next month you will be able to buy it and this will happen before the Scarlet ships. This is just my hopeful guess based on the following:
- Their due for a new camera
- It must overcome most of the shortcomings of the 7D and allow for DSLR lenses or filmic shollow DOF.
- I think the 7D and other video DSLR's helped Red change their game -again, which gave Canon more time to perfect their new camera.
moonlitnite
Well-known member
Yes, but despite the frisky sales let's not forget that the DSLR group is an entirely different product manager group from the camcorder unit. Those of us who have worked in multi-product group organizations understand divisional firewalls, profit centers, etc.
But those with an open checkbook should remember, the global economy isn't all that strong for non-essential prosumer toys (and certainly the business community isn't all that strong).
So Canon's camcorder unit would probably want to incorporate a fair number of improvements in its next generation of video camera gear. Of course, when the competition comes out with 7D/5D size sensors for a fair price, I'm sure Canon will quickly bring products to the marketplace.
Regards, Michael
Epilogue - having said this, I'm hoping Canon will prove my theory wrong in the next few months!
Eddy Robinson
Well-known member
Hmm, I'm gonna disagree a bit. RS is a hard problem but it's already pretty good in the DSLRs (that is, most people find the RS in the 7d tolerable). I think the frontside bus problem is less of an issue because in a DSLR size and space is at a premium, whereas in a prosumer camcorder form factor there's more room for both circuitry and cooling (via heatsink etc).
why? Just go with the large CMOS instead of the 3xCCD. Now admittedly that means committing to the still lens format and junking the video lenses that are optimized for a smaller sensor, but I suspect Canon might be willing to do that if they sell more glass...and I'm guessing they make more off lenses than they do off bodies.
to be sure, these are different divisions within the same company, but I doubt Canon are blind to the fact that their DSLR line are the new hotness for prosumer video, or the impending competition from RED. I'm pretty sure you'll see the launch of XL/XH-2k next year.
Let's face it, if they stuck the 7d into an XL body, gave it 2 CF slots, and internal SSD and a couple of XLRs, it'd sell like hotcakes, even with the various image quality flaws that exist.
NoahK
Hottie Mod
Yeah I don't see it being a form factor issue at all. The reasons why we don't have an XL3 with a full frame CMOS sensor already are more likely to be internal politics at Canon than technical issues. Remember this is a company that's had two very distinct and separate (and massive) videocamera and still camera divisions for decades. And now suddenly those two divisions need to essentially become one to deliver the camera everyone is really dreaming of. That's going to take a bit of doing.
Noah
amen to that!
Noah
Barry_Green
Moderator
I think the issue is probably more that there's no such thing (yet) as a video lens at that size...
The biggest video lenses are usually 2/3", and a 4/3 sensor is 4x as big. 35mm is bigger than that. And full frame is twice as big as that.
So a video camera ... that means a video lens, motorized zoom, autofocus, all that stuff. Doesn't exist for a video camera. Of course, if anyone was to build something like that, Canon is probably the most likely since they're a leading lens manufacturer.
Barry_Green
Moderator
Okay, but the problem is -- while a few cinema geeks like us would like it, the entire videography community would shriek at having to use manual-focus, manual-everything lenses with push-pull zoom.
Pretty much all SLR zooms are pretty much horrible for video work. People complain about the three-step motor zoom on the HVX, how much will they complain when they find that the zoom ring and focus ring are one and the same? And that the zoom inherently always loses focus whenever you zoom?
I can pretty much guarantee that these companies won't release such a product until they solve the zoom problem. Otherwise, you're gonna have a hundred thousand members of WEVA saying "it's unusable" etc... and no company wants that.
Even the GH1's lens, the most videolike lens out there (image stabilization, video-style autofocus, etc) is awful to zoom and doesn't hold focus. If Panasonic were to build a pro video camera based off the GH1's sensor, I'd definitely expect them to upgrade/re-do the lens...
I think the lens is the key thing holding everyone back. And, while they're designing a proper lens, maybe they could look into using faster video-appropriate sensors so the aliasing goes away, and then we'll really have something to look forward to!
Pretty much all SLR zooms are pretty much horrible for video work. People complain about the three-step motor zoom on the HVX, how much will they complain when they find that the zoom ring and focus ring are one and the same? And that the zoom inherently always loses focus whenever you zoom?
I can pretty much guarantee that these companies won't release such a product until they solve the zoom problem. Otherwise, you're gonna have a hundred thousand members of WEVA saying "it's unusable" etc... and no company wants that.
Even the GH1's lens, the most videolike lens out there (image stabilization, video-style autofocus, etc) is awful to zoom and doesn't hold focus. If Panasonic were to build a pro video camera based off the GH1's sensor, I'd definitely expect them to upgrade/re-do the lens...
I think the lens is the key thing holding everyone back. And, while they're designing a proper lens, maybe they could look into using faster video-appropriate sensors so the aliasing goes away, and then we'll really have something to look forward to!
slimjimmed
Well-known member
I bet alot of videographers could be won over if there was an innovative viewfinder that made focusing less of a hassle with manual lenses. Many videographers are very curious right now about DSLR's...and they are drawn to the capability to shoot stills. But I do get your point.
Most of my work is regular videography and no way in heck would I only have the 7D for all my video projects. The lack of motorized or smooth zoom is unacceptable (along with XLR and audio monitoring). And a sensor with no AA would be appropriate too.
Whoever comes out with a prosumer video camera with a GH1 or 7D sensor will make a killing. But it will probably kill some of their other line of cameras at the same time.
Whoever comes out with a prosumer video camera with a GH1 or 7D sensor will make a killing. But it will probably kill some of their other line of cameras at the same time.
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
Hi Barry: Thank you very much for that tidbit of info.
I assume you mean the usual "zoom in to catch focus, zoom back out and all is good" doesn't usually/ever work with most/all DSLR zoom lenses as is does with most/all video cam lenses, correct?
Barry_Green
Moderator
Correct, but more than that; you can't execute a zoom shot at all because as soon as you change the focal length, the focus is lost. So no zoom in/focus/zoom out/shoot, but also no zooming during the shot...
Barry_Green
Moderator
Agreed. And, contrary to everyone else who seems to think that this would be a "negative", anyone who thinks about it should realize that it's the only way forward.
If companies were actually "protecting" their existing lines, we would never have progressed beyond the VX1000 or XL1, because they wouldn't introduce something that would "cannibalize" their lines. But fortunately for us, that's not the way they work.
They will produce what they think will sell. If one of their other products can't compete? To hell with it. It gets Darwined. End of line. Canceled. VX1000, VX2000, PD150, PD170, DSR200, DSR250, DSR300, DSR400, DSR450, DSR500, DSR570 -- all gone. Screw 'em, out with the old and in with the new.
Anyone who artificially restrains product introductions in order to protect their existing lines, deserves what happens to them next (oblivion). Bring on the newest, the best, because that's what the competition is gonna do...
Peter J. DeCrescenzo
Veteran
Except for the DSR-450 & 400: They're still in Sony's product line, at least for the next few minutes:
http://pro.sony.com/bbsc/ssr/cat-broadcastcameras/cat-dvcam/
I just sold my 450 this week (serial #18), and though it was/is a _great_ cam, I'm s-o-o-o happy to now have the proceeds from the sale in my bank account.
NoahK
Hottie Mod
I dunno- if Canon is selling as many 7Ds and 5D Mark IIs to folks shooting video as I think they are there's nothing niche about this market at all and they'll be compelled to make a camera that fuses high quality lenses with a 35mm sensor and a real camcorder body. RED isn't shy from that, don't see what Canon should be.
Noah
Noah
David G. Smith
Steak Knife Member
I think that we are going to see it happen very soon. Remember that the VX-1000, was introduced as a high end consumer camera, and it changed the world. I think that Barry is right, and getting the lenses right for these types of cameras is going to be the big hurtle to jump. Those big hunks of glass are not going to be cheap and I would not hold my breath expecting the first full frame sensor cameras, designed for video, to come in sub $10k. I hope I am wrong.