My hacked Gh2 is killing my Af100

jdv said:
So would I... but then again, there's dozens of reliable shooters who agree that the hack is far sharper (including Mr. Bloom). Not that sharpness is everything, but it certainly is a nice thing to have.

What is the aliasing like on the GH2? Pardon my ignorance but I don't own one of those cams. I have a GF1 and I know my GF sees far more rez when shooting stills than the AF, but would also alias a lot more without the olpf filter when shooting video.

I think there are quite a few tradeoffs in the single chip world, aliasing vs resolution. The F3 has slightly more rez than the AF according to the SCCE test, but also tends to moire a bit more than the AF as well. If you want to pursue a one dimensional pursuit of sharpness, eventually you'll trip on some other limiter in the over all image scheme.

The way I see it the one thing that would put the af over the top as it is would be a >50mbs avc codec with 4-2-2, not necessarily AVC I because I wouldn't want to limit the over crank capability to 720 like the HPX 370. The extra color resolution would make grading an easier task and put the AF in the acceptable class for most broadcasters.

Panasonic has been leading the way in with the best in camera recording codecs for some time and now would be a great time for them to step up and give the AF some love in the in camera codec department. If the HPX 250 can have AVC I at a sub 6K price point, I'm sure the AF could have something better too.
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Well it was him that said he would be "on his way" if thats what he could get.

Is that a door I hear closing in the other room?
 
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Mark Smith said:
What is the aliasing like on the GH2?
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Much more than on the AF100. The GH2 exhibits aliasing as you would expect from a high-megapixel sensor without a video OLPF. That's the main reason there can be sharpness differences. At some point I should hack my GH2 and test them to see if there's actual legitimate detail being added, or if it's just aliasing. You can ask Rick Burnett about the time he did a test between the two, the unhacked GH2 showed more aliasing. And I did a comparison test on a concentric-ring color chart which showed the aliasing differences rather starkly.

However, what's excellent about the GH2 (and the AF100 for that matter) is that when it DOES alias, it does so without the horrible purple/orange color contamination that you see on the Canons and, to a much lesser extent, the Sonys.

Pardon my ignorance but I don't own one of those cams. I have a GF1 and I know my GF sees far more rez when shooting stills than the AF, but would also alias a lot more without the olpf filter when shooting video.
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No ignorance, you summed up the situation exactly as it is.


I think there are quite a few tradeoffs in the single chip world, aliasing vs resolution. The F3 has slightly more rez than the AF according to the SCCE test, but also tends to moire a bit more than the AF as well. If you want to pursue a one dimensional pursuit of sharpness, eventually you'll trip on some other limiter in the over all image scheme.
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Exactly. And the AF100 was optimized to eliminate aliasing as much as possible, which means that maybe some of the finest tiny detail gets blurred out too. The F3 was optimized to be as sharp as possible, and it exhibits color-band aliasing because of it.

The way I see it the one thing that would put the af over the top as it is would be a >50mbs avc codec with 4-2-2, not necessarily AVC I because I wouldn't want to limit the over crank capability to 720 like the HPX 370. The extra color resolution would make grading an easier task and put the AF in the acceptable class for most broadcasters.
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Which you can get with a Ninja. And let's not forget, the AF is already in the acceptable class for most broadcasters, including being put on the "HD Specialty" list by the BBC (as long as you're using an external recorder).

Interesting position though, I wonder how an AF100 w/Nano would compare to a hacked GH2.

If the HPX 250 can have AVC I at a sub 6K price point, I'm sure the AF could have something better too.
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I'd love to see that, especially with 10-bit architecture throughout.
 
"If the HPX 250 can have AVC-I at a sub 6K price point, I'm sure the AF could have something better too".
"I'd love to see that, especially with 10-bit architecture throughout."

A P2 version with intra would be just fine with me! Also on my list would be a resolution to the Canon EF lens issues. When the AF100 was released, I thought this would be my future as soon as the Birger Mount appeared. Not.

Grant
 
Barry_Green said:
Much more than on the AF100. The GH2 exhibits aliasing as you would expect from a high-megapixel sensor without a video OLPF. That's the main reason there can be sharpness differences. At some point I should hack my GH2 and test them to see if there's actual legitimate detail being added, or if it's just aliasing. You can ask Rick Burnett about the time he did a test between the two, the unhacked GH2 showed more aliasing. And I did a comparison test on a concentric-ring color chart which showed the aliasing differences rather starkly.

However, what's excellent about the GH2 (and the AF100 for that matter) is that when it DOES alias, it does so without the horrible purple/orange color contamination that you see on the Canons and, to a much lesser extent, the Sonys.


No ignorance, you summed up the situation exactly as it is.



Exactly. And the AF100 was optimized to eliminate aliasing as much as possible, which means that maybe some of the finest tiny detail gets blurred out too. The F3 was optimized to be as sharp as possible, and it exhibits color-band aliasing because of it.


Which you can get with a Ninja. And let's not forget, the AF is already in the acceptable class for most broadcasters, including being put on the "HD Specialty" list by the BBC (as long as you're using an external recorder).

Interesting position though, I wonder how an AF100 w/Nano would compare to a hacked GH2.


I'd love to see that, especially with 10-bit architecture throughout.
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Barry, You should try the GH2x-thirty patch and give us your thoughts. Just DO IT! LOL
 
It's true, I've definitely seen the GH2 exhibit aliasing before the AF100. But, that is to be expected from how the OLPF is designed in the GH2. On the opposite hand, the AF100 looks softer to me than the GH2 hacked. However, if you are getting aliasing, then you know that some of that detail is false, because that's what aliasing does. Also, when you then take sharpening algorithms into account, that aliasing pops out more because the sharpening is increasing the spatial amplitude at those edges. It doesn't add or remove aliasing, it's still there, it's just how well you can see it because of the processing.

These were shots me and another DVXUser did together in his front yard using his GH2 and my AF100.

As Barry said, it's all a trade off on what each camera is designed to be important in the specifications.

If you went in on the GH2 and replaced the OLPF to remove aliasing, then you'd get a softer image as well. Then you'd use sharpening like the AF100 to bring a bit of that back, but then, you have to worry about the sharpening enhancing the noise as well. It's all a balance. This is why it's always hard to say this or that camera is a winner because as you tweak the settings, it's a give and take.

Just like rolling shutter. You could run in ETC mode, but in my tests, I found ETC mode to have WAY too much noise for my liking. Second, it's a crop, so all your lenses have different framing, and you loose the advantage of shooting on a larger sensor. Now, not that it isn't really cool you have ETC and it has its uses, it's just that once again, you are playing the balance game of what you need, what the camera can do, what you are willing to give up.

Perfect example, the C300 footage at 720p to me was LESS than stellar. The colored moire was horrible and something that would keep me from using it. Yet, at 1080p I thought the image was FANTASTIC. This means of course there are good and bad things to deal with when shooting with the C300, as with the GH2, as with the AF100.

That's why I just want one of all of them :P
 
"Which you can get with a Ninja. And let's not forget, the AF is already in the acceptable class for most broadcasters, including being put on the "HD Specialty" list by the BBC (as long as you're using an external recorder).

I'd love to see that, especially with 10-bit architecture throughout."

Yeah me too, and as much as I love AVC I 10 bit 422, I have to believe that AVCHD like codec with a 50 -75 MBS bit rate with 10 bit architecture would be killer. What I have always liked about panasonic is that they have had for some years great in camera codecs and recording, eliminating the need for external recorders. Lately it seems like they are standing still on the codec/camera recording front, and they really need to get off the dime or else risk being relegated to a JVC like status.
 
GH2 vs AF100

I will drop this into the discussion just because by neccesity, I am currently heavily into "sorting" this for myself... and also as a word of caution to those with "broadcast intentions".

Broadcast Q.C can reject material for a number of reasons apart from chroma, luminance and audio : legal levels.

Skew and Moire are also listed along with spurious noise.

The AF100 (amongst most cameras) produces "illegal video". ie you can not broadcast what the camera can record. It needs legalising in Post and just because its exposed correctly on the wfm / zebras...does not mean it is legal for broadcast. BTW - this is a very good thing and not a negative.

I found that the GH2 in stock mode is more difficult to post to "broadcast legal" than the AF100. My guess is the GH2 is a "bit pumped".

I never checked the hacked version in the short time that I had it hacked but some one needs to do so.

FWIW: I have an AF!02 and a GH2.(un hacked) - I and my clients and my post colleagues...dig the images from the AF102 ( especially from the Samurai. but never a complaint about the AVCHD ever) .

For me ..its "horses for courses" but I just could not cope with the GH2 to do a "real shoot" even if it was 4K and gilded in gold. Its too bloody clunky and non instinctive to a film guy.
 
JonsMovies said:
In regards to an upcoming AF100 replacement, Panasonic is currently offering a $500 rebate on the cam which just so happens to end a couple of weeks before NAB.
http://omegabroadcast.com/fmp/promotions-detail.php?-manuRecID=7&-recid=525
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In the large sensor market, Panasonic is being squeezed on all sides by newer, and some say better, products from Sony, Red, Canon, Nikon, and even their own GH2. So I think they'll have to announce something new at NAB. Even if it doesn't ship until the end of the year, at least it can prevent people from buying competitors' products. This was the same strategy they used with the AF100: announced in April, shipped at the end of December, 2010. And 2 years is about long enough for a product refresh these days.

It may not be the AF100 replacement, though. Maybe the next model up. Just my .02.
 
Shooter said:
GH2 vs AF100
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Simple answer to me... both.

When you have the time to use the GH2 with an uber hack, why not? When it don't need to be "perfect" AF100 goes pretty much all the way and then some. And it's easy to use. Lovely to use in fact!
 
I've got both. I'm trying to use the GH2 as a b cam but I haven't tried the hack. I'm testing more tonight. Mine is not hacked but if I hacked it will it drop onto the same timeline in Premiere Pro as the AF-100? Isn't the hacked AVC-Intra?
 
Sumfun said:
In the large sensor market, Panasonic is being squeezed on all sides by newer, and some say better, products from Sony, Red, Canon, Nikon, and even their own GH2. So I think they'll have to announce something new at NAB. Even if it doesn't ship until the end of the year, at least it can prevent people from buying competitors' products. This was the same strategy they used with the AF100: announced in April, shipped at the end of December, 2010. And 2 years is about long enough for a product refresh these days.

It may not be the AF100 replacement, though. Maybe the next model up. Just my .02.
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Right and I think Panasonic has a big problem, even if they will deny it, they are using micro4 lenses. Micro4 is linked to the relative small sensor and the number of lenses you can buy are limited and relative slow. They should have adapted the APS-C format at least, but than they cannot make any profit on lenses. Canon and Sony don't have that problem. Nikon is too "stupid" not to jump in the videocam market, but it is not too late for them.
Panasonic can get on top with a camera with at least a larger sensor than M4, higher bitrate codec - 50mbs, 4:2:2 color space 10bits internal and external, New NikonD4/CanonC300 like ISO's, Slot for 2.5" SDD drive, no moire and a much higher resolution than the AF100. Perhaps a 3chip sensor with extended Dynamic range. An on board detachable 5" HD monitor like the C300.
 
What's this new 30x hack? I'm finally about to hack my GH2 as I'm now in narrative film mode and not event mode.... Also what type of card will I need?


The Gh2 is the bomb already without the hack and I've not done it cause I've been doing so much event stuff where I'm shooting 10 hours a day so having the hack would not have been prudent...


cheers and the AF100 is a great camera... I loved using it, especially for exterior shoots, BUT... in most instances I grabbed the GH2 due to its size and ease of use and that suited me fine... The addition of some good ND faders was essential though.
 
Kenny_G said:
Right and I think Panasonic has a big problem, even if they will deny it, they are using micro4 lenses. Micro4 is linked to the relative small sensor and the number of lenses you can buy are limited and relative slow. They should have adapted the APS-C format at least, but than they cannot make any profit on lenses. Canon and Sony don't have that problem. Nikon is too "stupid" not to jump in the videocam market, but it is not too late for them.
Panasonic can get on top with a camera with at least a larger sensor than M4, higher bitrate codec - 50mbs, 4:2:2 color space 10bits internal and external, New NikonD4/CanonC300 like ISO's, Slot for 2.5" SDD drive, no moire and a much higher resolution than the AF100. Perhaps a 3chip sensor with extended Dynamic range. An on board detachable 5" HD monitor like the C300.
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i disagree on 4/3" sensors. aps-c is better but 4/3 as is is fine.
-low light sensitivity is BS. as technology gets better, 4/3 will be able to do what aps-c can. right now it does fine at ISO 1600.
-theres a lot of lenses you can buy for 4/3" and theyre no longer slow. expensive maybe, but slow? no.

i agree on proper codec. if they put a 10bit intra 4:2:2 codec at the back end of the af100, we couldve gotten a lot more from the sensor.
 
I've found myself using our hacked GH2 cameras more than the AF-100 lately but if panny announces a 10-bit 4:2:2 AF200?.... count me in!! MFT sensor and lenses are just fine.
 
I either have to hack my GH2 or get my head examined because I can't get the GH2 to look anywhere near as good as my AF-100. Heck I can't even get it to match at all in my NLE. Admittedly, I am an extreme novice colorist but I've edited a few shorts and commercial spots. It has so much shiny detail and contrast and saturation that I can't do anything with it. I thought perhaps I wasn't exposing well because I'm not used to the histogram but in the waveform in Premiere it is exposed fine.

I think it looks lousy. I can't use it and believe me, I'd like to. I'm sure I am missing something because I saw Bob's beautiful movie trailer from India where he used an unhacked GH2 as a b cam and everyone is raving about how it's better. I don't know. I don't like it. With the AF-100 I shoot flatter, less detail, less saturation and when I bring it in and set a curve it's beautiful to me. TONS more cinematic. So, off to get my head examined and to the GH forum to figure out what to do to make this work.
 
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