Yes I have corrected my post to say 59.94. In too much of a hurry typing. Yes the XA10 is interlace so convention says 29.97 to match timecode and interlace sync pulse. However the camera is taking the same number of "pictures " just one is full frames and the other is a half frame either odd or even fields. Hence temporal motion is the same and exposure for the camera is the same whether it is 29.97 interlace or 59.94 progressive. For exposure the camera doesn't know the difference it is just what is recorded.
Mutli Cam shoot with one camera operator need advice
- Thread starter offbeatbryce
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offbeatbryce
Well-known member
wait, I'm still confused. is the xa10 shooting in 60 frames a second with 59.94 mode or is it shooting in 29.97fps?
As far as I can tell from the manual ( page 50 ) the XA10 only shoots 60i as standard so is 59.94 fields per sec which is 29.97 fps. They are the same . It does not shoot 60P only 60i in 1920x1080. 60P is correctly 59.94fps and 60i is correctly 29.97fps or 59.94fields per sec.
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
well that is frustrating for sure. the XA25 records in true 59.94 fps. That's really annoying that the xa10 doesn't.
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
but what if I want to use two cameras and sync them as multicam? one will be 29.97 and the other will be 59.94 which won't look right correct?
They are the same. 29.97 interlace is exactly the same temporal motion as 59.94P. Same number of images a sec. I know it is very confusing. Just think of it is the number of times the camera takes a picture. For interlace it takes a field 59.97 times a sec. The progressive camera takes 59.97 full frames. Same number of images a sec. The timecode for interlace is where the confusion comes because this is 29.97fps. 2 fields is one frame corresponding to the interlace sync pulse at the start of the 2 fields sequence. However this is NOT the same as 29.97 full frames of video. One is full frames the other is half the vertical resolution called a field, odd or even. They will sync up perfectly on a 60P or 60i timeline because the number of images are the same. 60 i timeline is better because it is easier for the NLE to take fields from the progressive file than for it to interpolate a full frame from a field. All my projects are multicam with 3 or 4 cameras and a mix of interlace and progressive. ie 29.97fps ( 60i) or 59.94P ( 60P ). Normal cameras for me to use are my Sony NX5U which is only interlace at 1920x1080 ( just like the XA10 ), FDR-AX100 60P, FDR-AX53 60P and NX30U 60P. I edit multicam in EDIUS with this setup with a 1920x1080 interlace timeline. Sync works perfectly all the time.
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
okay, now I'm even more confused. I want to film in true 6o frames a second so I can slow down footage. You are saying none of my cameras films in tru 60 frames a second? If so then why does Premiere after it imports the xa25 footage show the frame rate at 59.94 instead of 29.97 or 601?
No neither of your camera shoot in exactly 60fps. For NTSC the rate is 59.94fps. Interlaced is sometimes called 60i and progressive called 60P. They are both taking "pictures at 59.94 exposures a sec " one takes full frames ( the XA25 ) the other takes fields ( half frames the odd or even field the XA10, this is interlaced ) you can slow both down but the software will have a harder time with the interlaced file. Your cameras are different and you cannot change this. They will match up fine on an interlaced timeline. The XA10 is only interlaced at 1920x1080, so will appear as 29.97fps in the NLE but as I have explained is still 59.94 individual images a sec called fields, half the vertical resolution but they are individual and exactly match the image rate of the progressive 59.94 file. The XA25 shoots 60P ( 59.94 ) in either AVCHD or MP4. If you want to slow down the file in the NLE to 30P then use the XA25 to do this as you will get a better result. Personally I do not like the slow frame rates and do all my video at 59.94 ( progressive or interlaced ie 29.97fps )
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
I understand what you are explaining but I'm still struggling to understand why the actual footage is showing 59.94fps in my NLE. Even the properties window shows it's in 59.94 and not 29.97. If it doesn't shoot in true 60 frames per second then why have I read you can on other websites?
That's why I bought the xa25 in the first place was the record in true 60 fps.
Edit: Here is the frames rates and modes of the xa25. from a camera review site.
Camcorder HD Recording Modes: 60i, 60p, PF30 Frame Rate(30p), PF24 Frame Rate (24p), Native 24p Frame Rate ( matches the frame rate of film).
BrianMurphy
Veteran
From the source....Google:
http://www.tvtechnology.com/media-systems/0191/whats-the-difference-between-fps-and-fps/241737
http://www.tvtechnology.com/media-systems/0191/whats-the-difference-between-fps-and-fps/241737
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
that still doesn't explain why my NLE is showing my footage is in 59.94. Premiere Pro cc actually lists in the metadata that it's shot in 59.94.
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
Further more there is this text I found from http://camcorders.reviewed.com/content/canon-xa25-first-impressions-review
"With the XA25 and XA20 (as well as the new HF G30), we can't complain anymore. The new camcorders have the ability to shoot 28Mbps 60p AVCHD video or 35Mbps 60p MP4 video, as well as offering the classic 24p, 30p, and 60i frame rates—all at full-HD resolution. In MP4 mode, you can also switch over to 1280 x 720 recording, or shoot standard-definition video with 30p or 24p frame rate options."
the fact it mentions 60p seems to be it shoots in true 60 frames a second. I googled 60p vs 60i and from what I found 60p is true 60 frames a second and 60i is 29.97 frames.
So I'm still baffled why I'm being told I can't shoot in true 60 frames a second.
Bassman2003
Veteran
I think it is time to step back and learn a little bit before going down a dead end road. 
60p, 30p, 24p etc... are often used because it is part of nomenclature, not exact fact. The more precise numbers have to do with drop frame audio, sending broadcast signals and keeping sync. True 24fps and the like are only used in high end cinema. That is it. So unless you have a high end cinema camera and it is set to "24p", you will be shooting in one of the more precise numbered formats.
60p, 30p, 24p etc... are often used because it is part of nomenclature, not exact fact. The more precise numbers have to do with drop frame audio, sending broadcast signals and keeping sync. True 24fps and the like are only used in high end cinema. That is it. So unless you have a high end cinema camera and it is set to "24p", you will be shooting in one of the more precise numbered formats.60P in NTSC is 59.94. Marketing seems to always state interlace as 60i and progressive as 60P they are in fact correctly 29.97 and 59.94 NTSC. As in Brian's reference. You may find this in small print somewhere in the foot notes. When you bring your file into your NLE it correctly identifies the files. 29.97 for the XA10 interlaced and 59.94 for the XA25 progressive since most NLE's are constructed around frame sync. I am not sure what if any camera actually shoot at 60fps. For NTSC it has to be 59.94fps.
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
okay, I called canon support and I was told the 25 doesn't shoot in NTSC and it's true 60FPS. Also, why is it that if I shoot in 60p and slow it down in premiere it's not blurry? that to me would mean there is more frames than 29.97 otherwise it would be blurry.
Last edited:
Bassman2003
Veteran
From the Canon Website XA25:
NTSC:
AVCHD - 1080: 59.94P / 59.94i / PF29.97 / 23.98P
MP4 - 1080: 59.94P / 29.97P / 23.98P; 720 and 360: 29.97P / 23.98P
Blurry in terms of video is a little more related to shutter speed and subject/camera movement, but I see what you are saying. Slowing things down in post will often look good up to the 50% range. Even further if there is little camera movement as well as subject movement.
NTSC:
AVCHD - 1080: 59.94P / 59.94i / PF29.97 / 23.98P
MP4 - 1080: 59.94P / 29.97P / 23.98P; 720 and 360: 29.97P / 23.98P
Blurry in terms of video is a little more related to shutter speed and subject/camera movement, but I see what you are saying. Slowing things down in post will often look good up to the 50% range. Even further if there is little camera movement as well as subject movement.
I think I would try someone else at Canon. Look on page 108 of your XA25 manual and you will see that the HDMI output is stated as 59.94P. It is an NTSC camcorder. Doesn't seem to matter whether it is recording AVCDH or MP4. All its recording modes are NTSC. Also look at the specification page 179 and following pages. 60P is marketing, the true rate is 59.94 which is why the NLE sees this. Maybe the Canon guy was trying to emphasis it is progressive not interlace.
How are you slowing down the 60P file. In a 30P project or getting the NLE to slow down? The blur will depend more on the shutter speed you recorded the initial video with. If your shutter speed was above 1/60 then even single frames grabbed from the video may be good enough. I often do this with my videos to get pictures for people. The software you use to slow down will interpolate the needed frames if you stay on a 60P project. The sharper the initial video the easier it is for the software to slow down.
How are you slowing down the 60P file. In a 30P project or getting the NLE to slow down? The blur will depend more on the shutter speed you recorded the initial video with. If your shutter speed was above 1/60 then even single frames grabbed from the video may be good enough. I often do this with my videos to get pictures for people. The software you use to slow down will interpolate the needed frames if you stay on a 60P project. The sharper the initial video the easier it is for the software to slow down.
offbeatbryce
Well-known member
right but there are countless filmmakers on other sites telling me it shoots true 60 frames a second so this is what I'm not understanding. If it's just a marketing thing then what's the point of ever having true 60 frames?
also, It's in a 29.97fps timeline and I've slowed it down to 30 percent and it's not blurry and it's fast action sports shot at 1/60. The soccer ball remains motionless while in the air slowed down. It's not blurry at all
The internet is full of " fake news ". I expect they are as confused as you are about the true frame rate in NTSC. I am sure they are making the point that it is progressive rather than interlace. ( ie 60P and not 60i ) A bit like saying full HD meaning 1920x1080 rather than 1280x720. PC can play back various frame rates without the issues of NTSC compliance though even PC's need display refresh compliance.
What NLE do you use ? You of course now realize that the 29.97fps project is 60i interlaced. Has the smooth motion of tradition television and in my mind the best for sports action etc. I shoot all my video in 60i or 60p and edit on a 29.97fps ( 60i ) timeline. Makes it easier to go to Bluray or encode for DVD.
What NLE do you use ? You of course now realize that the 29.97fps project is 60i interlaced. Has the smooth motion of tradition television and in my mind the best for sports action etc. I shoot all my video in 60i or 60p and edit on a 29.97fps ( 60i ) timeline. Makes it easier to go to Bluray or encode for DVD.