More Red Camera falsehoods.
- Thread starter Ed Farnsworth
- Start date
Tell me how does Redmags pricing varies to the mark ups of Sony's SxS, Panasonic P2 cards, Arri Raw cartridges? Its part of a business model and a way to warrant the less failures possible.
Run&Gun
Veteran
Couldn’t care less about the pricing or any of the other issues that have arisen lately, as I don’t shoot RED. The people that do have a problem with it are a lot of RED users that were lied to by RED, claiming that they were/are made with high-end, ‘only the best’ components and they were actually made with bottom of the barrel memory. And a lot of them have said they would have had no problem with the pricing IF they had in fact been made out of the high-end components that were claimed.
I don’t know about Sony(even though I have a 55), but Panasonic actually does manufacture their own memory. To my knowledge, Panasonic P2 and P2express cards are a wholly Panasonic product. And I believe ARRI RAW is shot on CODEX drives.
You seem to be getting defensive on the subject, probably because you’re a RED user. You point out in one of your posts that they use components manufactured by other companies, just like a lot of other companies do, so you don’t understand why some people are mad. I simply said that a lot of those people are mad about it, because RED said that it was all top-of-the-line components, which turned out to not be true. End of story. That’s all I was trying to say. It has nothing to do with other brands.
JPNola
Veteran
Maybe that is the case for some. As for myself, I could afford a RED but I never wanted a RED camera. A camera with no internal ND doesn't suit the sort of work I do. As well there was all the proprietary cables and such required with a RED camera. I've heard many of my Sound Ops complain about the special cable needed to run sound to the camera. I was also not a fan of RED's style. The saw-blade logo, the military hardware looking elements, the Transformers cartoony stuff. I found it all West Coast flakey. Boyish. Juvenile. Silly. Clownish. And then there was the "cinema" snobbery of RED owners and RED culture in which RED owners and fan-boys looked down upon ENG style cameras and looked down on camera makes such as Sony. The culture at times acted as if owning a RED automatically made you a "DP" and a "Cinematographer" while you were not a "Cinematographer" if you owned a Sony camera or a Panasonic camera. There was an air of arrogance. As if owning a RED made you better and more artiste than someone who owned a Sony, Panasonic, or Canon. I and others I know of began to associate RED with flakiness. A RED owner stereotyped as fussy, conceited, and inflexible if not outright silly. Someone who would bog down a simple shoot by wanting to make it into "art" when it didn't need to be "art". Someone who would try to impress with their knowledge of Jim Jarmusch's filmography and cause everyone else's eyes to roll. "yeah, okay, whatever. You know art-house cinema. We're all wowed by you, Mr. RED Camera. Now can we just get the damn reporter standup done?". Many RED owners were new to the profession. Whereas the owners of Sony broadcast cameras typically had been at this game a while. Sony owners had many years of experience. Been there, done that. And along came these RED camera upstarts who arrogantly thought themselves better than those with far more experience just because they owned a camera that was more "cinema".
edit: I qualify that the sort of stereotyping of RED camera owners I spoke about is unfair and, admittedly, it is ignorant to generalize about all RED owners. Were I an owner of a RED I would not like the unflattering depiction of RED owners and of RED culture. But the post was in response to the statement that critics of RED are just envious because they cannot afford a RED. So it was ignorant generalization in response to ignorant generalization, if that excuses it in any way.
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Run&Gun
Veteran
Not wanting to stereo-type, because I do know some RED owners that are just normal schmucks like us, but yes, a lot of the ones that I do see out in the wild, more or less “fit the bill” and they look at the camera as their “golden ticket”, all-access pass to the industry and they and their identity are inextricably tied to that RED camera. So I sort of get it, why so many will defend RED blindly and to the death, because they are basically defending themselves, as well. Even though many are extremely talented and could do what they do with any other camera. Maybe it’s a codependency/identity type thing. Like a hipster and his beard and tight jeans. They don’t necessarily make the person, but what happens if he shaved and threw on some baggy cargo shorts? Well, besides his sperm count returning to normal...
A few years ago, one of my long-time audio guys said that if I ever bought a RED, he’d stop working for me. We could still be friends, but he wouldn’t do audio for me anymore. He was half-joking, but I hear the cable complaints all the time from audio guys. Our world, it’s simple, you need to feed audio into a VariCam, F55, C300 or Amira, standard off-the-shelf XLR’s. Same cameras with time code, BNC. Done. They don’t need to buy $xxx cables that get used a handful of times a year and don’t get any extra money for owning. Here’s an idea, if you have a camera that uses special, non-standard cables, then as the camera owner, you should own those cables.
JPNola
Veteran
One issue with the mags was the "Made in the USA" labeling on the mags. That was particularly seen as an affront by some because it involves patriotism. Claiming a product is made of maple when it is actually made of pine is one thing. But boasting that a product is made in the USA when it is in fact only assembled in the USA, that's deception which takes advantage of a desire to be "patriotic" by buying US-made products. It more pissed people off because it went to patriotism. Something presented as pro-America was not in fact as pro-America as the labeling suggested. It more caused people to feel like they'd been made fools than deception of another type might have. Their patriotism was taken advantage of. They were led to believe they were making a patriotic purchase.
NorBro
Major Contributor
It's not about patriotism. People had no other choice.
It's about money and money only.
If customers started to receive some of their hundreds or thousands of dollars back that they spent for all applicable products then it would be the end of it.
But until then the very simple breakdown of how people feel is this:
"Based on what I think I know or what's actually true, I think that you are charging more than you should be. And I don't like that."
It's about money and money only.
If customers started to receive some of their hundreds or thousands of dollars back that they spent for all applicable products then it would be the end of it.
But until then the very simple breakdown of how people feel is this:
"Based on what I think I know or what's actually true, I think that you are charging more than you should be. And I don't like that."
Unless, of course, the previous Red owner will use the proceeds off his sale to upgrade to a new Red camera. The retention rate, obviously, depends on a lot of variables but being part of the Red ecosystem is a fairly significant anchor.
Actually, there were a lot of independents who tried to break through the Japanese cartel dominance. Red, BMD, and to some extent, KineFinity were the best financed and thus were able to survive, whereas Aaton, Digital Bolex and AJA had to drop out. Any businessman could see off a camera tear down what its manufacturing costs were. What made the first decade of Red so successful was that Jannard managed to hit just the right niche, where they could move so many units at such a high profit margin.
But, at the same time, an industry analysis could foresee the times where the mass manufacturers would squeeze Red's market share from all sides. On the high end ARRI Alexa LF/Mini LF, Sony Venice and Panasonic Varicam played their part while, on the lower end pro level, FS-7/II, EVA1, C200 and C300 MKII are providing a lot more bang for the buck than Red.
And I don't even have to mention the "consumer" gear like GH-5/S, XT-3, S1/H, 5D MKIV, A7III, Z6, Pocket 4K/6K, EZ Cam, etc.
And, with the diminishing market share and diminishing profits per unit sold with less profitable accessory packaging, Red will have a tough sledding ahead (albeit not much different than all camera manufacturers). Its survival is by no means assured.
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
The manufacturing costs are only a small part of this. R&D is a huge cost. As is marketing. You may have "the best" but you have to tell the world AND convince them to buy.
With most companies the R&D costs a fortune. The original Jinni Tech argument for both the Mags and the Monitor was that not only were the components the cheapest but there was no R&D. The monitor appeared to be using the standard reference design supplied free from the silicon people. So R&D for the Mags and the monitor: 4 person weeks?
Therefore the only real costs were marketing. This is where Jinni are saying the marketing (for the mags at least ) was false.
Other memory cards like the Panasonic did have a lot of R&D and were not the simple and cheapest off the shelf things. That is the difference
Hence all the fuss about RED.
Mike Krumlauf
Award Winning Filmmaker
I think its stupid to label people not liking RED because they cant afford one. I've owned a Red One MX, i've used their latest cameras from the epic mx on up on freelance gigs and still, my foot is firm on saying I dont like their cameras, and I dont like them as a company. Im not asking for people to agree with me, im just sharing my feelings of them personally. I've worked with just about every prosumer and professional camera system that has been released from 2001 onward (minus a few models here and there) and I still to this still to this day firmly love ARRI and Sony the best when it comes to digital, Panavision being my all time favorite company. End of story.
People are going to like what they like. Its obvious that RED has fans and lovers around the globe just like every other major manufacturer.. i'm just not one of them.. I'm sure there are people that hate Sony or Panasonic or whatever... I'm not going to knock on people that hate the cameras I've grown to love over the years, its nothing personal. You can't beat people down for not liking something and you cant make an aim at their finances either. I know plenty of "fat cats" who could buy any camera they wanted and they dont touch red, so money has nothing to do with it.
It was like back in the days of DV, I had a DVX100A and hated it and went to a Canon XL2 and loved it and plenty of people here were calling me stupid for making the switch.. its the only Canon camera to this day my heart really went into. I loved the XL2 and always will. Cameras at the end of the day are just tools and it's what the filmmaker can do with it that counts and some people get comfortable in specific cameras and workflows and they make the best work possible staying in that, even if its not the most relevant or "hip" brand to be using. I commend RED for doing what they did in 2006 to change the market and push digital to overtake film that much more, but I will not nor ever be a fan of their cameras or phones but I have the decency to respect those that do... just as i know plenty that wont touch red, i know plenty that do.. a friend of mine just shot a music video for chance the rapper on a RED camera and he swears by them so i respect that... I wouldnt want someone dissing my creative choices for working with the F23... its just rude.
People are going to like what they like. Its obvious that RED has fans and lovers around the globe just like every other major manufacturer.. i'm just not one of them.. I'm sure there are people that hate Sony or Panasonic or whatever... I'm not going to knock on people that hate the cameras I've grown to love over the years, its nothing personal. You can't beat people down for not liking something and you cant make an aim at their finances either. I know plenty of "fat cats" who could buy any camera they wanted and they dont touch red, so money has nothing to do with it.
It was like back in the days of DV, I had a DVX100A and hated it and went to a Canon XL2 and loved it and plenty of people here were calling me stupid for making the switch.. its the only Canon camera to this day my heart really went into. I loved the XL2 and always will. Cameras at the end of the day are just tools and it's what the filmmaker can do with it that counts and some people get comfortable in specific cameras and workflows and they make the best work possible staying in that, even if its not the most relevant or "hip" brand to be using. I commend RED for doing what they did in 2006 to change the market and push digital to overtake film that much more, but I will not nor ever be a fan of their cameras or phones but I have the decency to respect those that do... just as i know plenty that wont touch red, i know plenty that do.. a friend of mine just shot a music video for chance the rapper on a RED camera and he swears by them so i respect that... I wouldnt want someone dissing my creative choices for working with the F23... its just rude.
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jamedia.uk
Well-known member
Some of us discussing this don't use RED not because we can't afford them, just because like the majority, we happen to use something else.
Many on here shoot news/ENG so a red is not the camera for it.
This means we neither own nor lust after RED cameras so we have a detached and more dispassionate view of it.
Mike Krumlauf
Award Winning Filmmaker
That feeling isnt just in the news world. There are plenty of cinema based people that won't touch RED as well. But i get your point.
jamedia.uk
Well-known member
It's not that I, and many others "won't touch RED" it is just that the RED cameras are not really in the field we work in, the same as someone lookinf got a small family car is not going to look at van's.
I don't look at the other cameras mentioned as competition to RED either. OK I was looking at the BMD Ursa Broadcast camera but not the BMD cinema camera's....