Mixing for Live Webcast

A

Artkoudos

Member
Hello everybody,

I have a job in a couple of days that I'm required to mix 7 speakers (3 that will be standing and move freely will have radio mics on and the other 4 will have table top mics). I usually do sound mixing/recording for films and in general for purposes that will involve further sound manipulation so I am not that experienced in the broadcast/webcast part of things. I will be using two location 4 channel mixers and I will be feeding a 744 for recording and for gathering all the channels in order to feed the webcast device. We are also recording audio separately cause some parts will be used for cutting a promo later on but the main thing is the live webcast.

This might be a silly question for some but how should I approach mixing on this case? I reckon since all this is only dialogue based material and since there is no post all mics/channels should be left in the centre and the final left and right channels output from the 744 should contain all four recorded channels equally.

I will be able to possibly run some tests the day before the job since I will have the kit available to me but any opinions would be more than appreciated.

Thanks in advance.
 
What 4 channel field mixers are you going to be using?
Do they have a mix buss output/input like on the Sound Devices 442-552 etc?
So you can essentially create 1x 8 channel mixer?
 
Compressor/limiter will be your friend here. Other than that keep your levels good with no sudden changes and you're good. No panning. A mixing board would be easier. But no worries. don't over think it.Unless its going through a pa as well, then you're screwed :p
 
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I'm using my LSP4 Filmtech 4 channel mixer that you can cascade with another Filmtech to create an 8 channel mixer but unfortunately I dont have a second one and there aren't any out there for renting.

Budget is quite limited and the small amount for renting kit is going for the table top mics. The second mixer will most likely be my Soundcraft Folio Notepad that has 4 pre amps and I'm using for routing purposes in my home studio or my first location mixer that is an Azden FM-42. I might have the ability to get my hands around a 442 for free but I dont think I can link it with the Filmtech.
 
This is how I would do it.
4 table top mics into your filmtech. Output the L channel into the first input channel of the 442. At the output of the 442 you now have a 7 channel mixer. I have done this countless times through the years
and as long as your gain structure is decent you'll be totally fine.
Send the Left output of the 442 to your webfeed and either split with a y cable or use another LEFT output on the 442 to send a mix to the 744.

Put the mics you want to ISO on the 442 where you have access to the direct outs. Or if you want to create a submix you can route just the channels you want
to the RIGHT 442 output to send to the 744. Remember only the LEFT out is webfeed so you can feed whatever you like to the right output and use it at will.

If this sounds overly complicated for you (it really isn't) then find another way, but figured I would at least give you my thoughts on it.

Personally I would go with stick mic's on stands before I would use PZM's in this situation. In my experience they tend to work a bit better, as they are directly pointed
at the subject, off the table so there is less paper/shuffling noise. Also you can get them closer to the persons mouth.

Also if any of the mic's are in the audience, I would suggest setting up near the front of the room on the side where you can see the entire rooms mouths rather than
the back of peoples heads. It will help a lot for cueing.
 
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Mitch.Kear said:
Compressor/limiter will be your friend here. Other than that keep your levels good with no sudden changes and you're good. No panning. A mixing board would be easier. But no worries. don't over think it.Unless its going through a pa as well, then you're screwed :p
Click to expand...

No PA is required so things are a bit straight forward. I agree that a mixing board/console would be ideal but cannot do much about it. My concern is that the souncraft doesn't have an onboard limiter.
 
For a live on-the-fly mix, linear faders are a must if there's panel discussions. I used to do a lot of these and used a Mackie Onyx 1640. The show consisted of usually a minimum of 4-6 table mics, podium, a lav or two. two runners with wireless H/Hs, two room mic (for applause ect.) The muliti-track was fed from the analog direct-outs. Webcast and video mix from the main outs with comp/limiters. To make matters more interesting, I fed the house PA from pre-fader aux sends.
After the initial show, my most important augmentation was adding shock-mounts (Shure A55M) to the table mics.
 
Yeah your gear isn't ideal for this but where I am you can rent a live mixer and dbx stereo comp/lim under 40 bucks for the night.
 
one
Rippie said:
This is how I would do it.
4 table top mics into your filmtech. Output the L channel into the first input channel of the 442. At the output of the 442 you now have a 7 channel mixer. I have done this countless times through the years
and as long as your gain structure is decent you'll be totally fine.
Send the Left output of the 442 to your webfeed and either split with a y cable or use another LEFT output on the 442 to send a mix to the 744.

Put the mics you want to ISO on the 442 where you have access to the direct outs. Or if you want to create a submix you can route just the channels you want
to the RIGHT 442 output to send to the 744. Remember only the LEFT out is webfeed so you can feed whatever you like to the right output and use it at will.

If this sounds overly complicated for you (it really isn't) then find another way, but figured I would at least give you my thoughts on it.

Personally I would go with stick mic's on stands before I would use PZM's in this situation. In my experience they tend to work a bit better, as they are directly pointed
at the subject, off the table so there is less paper/shuffling noise. Also you can get them closer to the persons mouth.

Also if any of the mic's are in the audience, I would suggest setting up near the front of the room on the side where you can see the entire rooms mouths rather than
the back of peoples heads. It will help a lot for cueing.
Click to expand...

Thanks for your feedback. I was planning to feed both mixers to the 744 separately but what you are saying also makes sense and allows me to have a more detailed feed on the 744 via direct outs and more output options from the mixer. It's not definite that I will have a 442 available to me but I could do the same with the azden feeding into the Filmtech since the filmtech has direct outs as well through a 15 pin Hirose connector. Of course it would be better to use the 442 instead of the azden since its a much better piece of equipment.

I do have another question though. I'm not familiar with the term Webfeed regarding the left output of the 442 could you explain what this stands for?

Given the fact that I'm using the Azden as the first mixer and the Filmtech as the output mixer I have the option of direct outs to the 744 and two stereo outs (one on a 12 pin Hirose and one on Left and Right Xlr's for feeding one of the cameras for sync purposes)
By the way there won't be any audience so no PA or additional mics and finally by saying table top mics I meant stick mics on a small table stand. More precisely I will use 4 Neumann KM100 with the AK 40 or AK 43 capsule.

Again thanks for your feedback, its been very useful.
 
Rick R said:
For a live on-the-fly mix, linear faders are a must if there's panel discussions. I used to do a lot of these and used a Mackie Onyx 1640. The show consisted of usually a minimum of 4-6 table mics, podium, a lav or two. two runners with wireless H/Hs, two room mic (for applause ect.) The muliti-track was fed from the analog direct-outs. Webcast and video mix from the main outs with comp/limiters. To make matters more interesting, I fed the house PA from pre-fader aux sends.
After the initial show, my most important augmentation was adding shock-mounts (Shure A55M) to the table mics.
Click to expand...

I've used similar setup when doing live sound and it always worked. It would be great to have this option but I'm limited on budget and also amount of equipment that I will be able to carry since I'm based in London and the job is in Sweden. Linear faders would be ideal. I think i need to invest in a 16 channel desk at some point for similar jobs. I dont have a lot of options this time so most likely I will have to link two mixers. I will have to be a bit more careful with my levels since I wont have a comp/limiter on my main output but I'm confident that it will work.

Thanks for the advice on the shock-mounts. I have experienced noises on table top mics in the past but it did not cross my mind to include them in the rental but I can still get them in the order.
 
Mitch.Kear said:
Yeah your gear isn't ideal for this but where I am you can rent a live mixer and dbx stereo comp/lim under 40 bucks for the night.
Click to expand...

I agree that gear is not ideal but there is no more budget and I'm not willing to put the hand in my personal pocket. As I said above the job is in Sweden and wont be able to get a lot of equipment with me . Flight back to London on the next day has been pushed a bit later and I might get charged for an additional day from the rental house.

Thanks for your post and please let me know if there is anything else you would propose in order to make this work as good as possible, given the available kit.
 
Artkoudos said:
I'm not familiar with the term Webfeed regarding the left output of the 442 could you explain what this stands for?
Click to expand...
web feed= my shortened version of webcast feed.

I haven't used the filmtech mixer in many years and can't remember the quality of its limiters
but I would take the few mins and contact whoever has the 442 and see if it's possible to borrow it.
The brickwall limiters on it's outputs will make your life easier for the web cast feed.

During your testing with the web feed side of things, experiment with the output level to find where it works best and doesn't distort/break up.
Set your limiter just below that.

As far as the other answers you've been given I could go off about using a particular mixer or set up that you don't have access to
but when the question states your limitations I think it's better to discuss a solution that is actually achievable with those limitations in mind.

An excellent future solution (with gear you don't own) is the Sound Devices 788T has announced a soon to be released
auto-mix feature which would be absolutely perfect for situations like these. I personally look forward to seeing/hearing it when it's released.
It will attenuate all mic's not currently being used so your web cast feed would sound very tight and non-echoey without the issues of missed cues
or having to constantly scan the room with your eyes to guess who will be speaking next. Cool stuff.
 
Rippie said:
An excellent future solution (with gear you don't own) is the Sound Devices 788T has announced a soon to be released
auto-mix feature which would be absolutely perfect for situations like these...your web cast feed would sound very tight and non-echoey without the issues of missed cues
or having to constantly scan the room with your eyes to guess who will be speaking next. Cool stuff.
Click to expand...

In other words, companies don't need soundies anymore :cheesy:
 
Pete@twenty7pix said:
In other words, companies don't need soundies anymore :cheesy:
Click to expand...
Maybe we should all just become directors ;)

In serious though, dan dugan style auto mixers have been around for many a year being used on talk shows, etc
They will only get ya so far though the sound person still needs to be constantly helping the auto mixer do its job better by shutting off or attenuating
unused channels and the 100 other things that needs done to create a good mix.

It is interesting that in the feature film world "sound mixer" in the days of single track recorders (or 2 track if you were lucky)
meant all mixing had to be done on set. These days for the most part instead of "sound mixer" the term should probably be changed to something more
appropriate like "sound acquisition" or "dailies mixer".
 
Rippie said:
...These days for the most part instead of "sound mixer" the term should probably be changed to something more
appropriate like "sound acquisition" or "dailies mixer".
Click to expand...
Or a "bit bucket" :undecided. Around here, you're lucky you to get a glorified boom stand, aka a PA, on set to "point the mic at that talking person." It's tough for a guy like me, who can mix 4-5 channels but only down to a two track recorder, to get any work. You almost have to invest an extra $20,000 worth of multitrack equipment and wires just to make $250 a day.
 
Rippie said:
As far as the other answers you've been given....
....I think it's better to discuss a solution that is actually achievable with those limitations in mind.
Click to expand...

I figured an extra 40 bucks to save a lot of mess would be a great suggestion actually...

You almost have to invest an extra $20,000 worth of multitrack equipment and wires just to make $250 a day.
Click to expand...

That's crazy! I guess the competition where you are is that bad eh. Mind you there must be a ton of work to be had.
 
Mitch.Kear said:
...That's crazy! I guess the competition where you are is that bad eh. Mind you there must be a ton of work to be had.
Click to expand...
There is work, but like I said, the pay ain't great so some soundies take what they can get which lowers the standard pay rate, thus setting the standard lower than what it should.
 
Rippie said:
web feed= my shortened version of webcast feed.
Click to expand...

I'm understanding that web feed stand for webcast feed, the question was about the particularity of the left channel to be appropriate for web feed whilst the right one is not.

Rippie said:
I haven't used the filmtech mixer in many years and can't remember the quality of its limiters
but I would take the few mins and contact whoever has the 442 and see if it's possible to borrow it.
The brickwall limiters on it's outputs will make your life easier for the web cast feed.

During your testing with the web feed side of things, experiment with the output level to find where it works best and doesn't distort/break up.
Set your limiter just below that.
Click to expand...

Unfortunately no 442 is available from people I know so I will have to go with what I have. The limiters on the Filmtech are quite solid and the machine is sounding really sweet even though on this case this is not the point. There will be a separate operator that will take care of the final webcasting procedure through a vision mixer. We will test levels etc and we will have a couple of hours for setup, rehearsal and tests in general. I'm quite confident that things will go well at the end, even without having the appropriate equipment.


Rippie said:
An excellent future solution (with gear you don't own) is the Sound Devices 788T has announced a soon to be released
auto-mix feature which would be absolutely perfect for situations like these. I personally look forward to seeing/hearing it when it's released.
It will attenuate all mic's not currently being used so your web cast feed would sound very tight and non-echoey without the issues of missed cues
or having to constantly scan the room with your eyes to guess who will be speaking next. Cool stuff.
Click to expand...

The 788 option sounds sweet but I wont be looking for an 8 track recorder for the next year or so. Definitely this feature would make situations like that sound much better..

This job is all about getting more and more equipment and there are so many other important things to get before the 8 tracks recorder at the moment.. As other people said in this thread I hope jobs were paying as much as we are paying to get the equipment needed.

Thanks again for the help.
 
Pete@twenty7pix said:
Or a "bit bucket" :undecided. Around here, you're lucky you to get a glorified boom stand, aka a PA, on set to "point the mic at that talking person." It's tough for a guy like me, who can mix 4-5 channels but only down to a two track recorder, to get any work. You almost have to invest an extra $20,000 worth of multitrack equipment and wires just to make $250 a day.
Click to expand...
Only 20k?? That will get you a Deva and a few wires or a Cantar and a bag to carry it. Seriously, a personal investment of $50 to $100 kilobucks in kit is not unheard of among established feature mixers.
 
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