puredrifting
Major Contributor
Thanks Bill!
C300: Memory Keeper - Arri Amira & C300 Mark II
- Thread starter Eric Coughlin
- Start date
Thanks Bill!
Hey Bill- right now if I was doing what you're doing, I'd choose the same camera eco-system (if cost was no object, the Alexa LF). In terms of DR and under/over compensation in post, what impresses me the most about ARRI's color science is decent 'color invariant' exposure, meaning limited color shifts as exposure changes. In a paid (by a client vs. self-funded), high(er) end shoot, with lots of crew, the camera systems which provide the most safety will be the most useful/profitable. That's why ARRI tends to be the first choice over Red/Sony at the high end when cost is no object (even though those other camera system can provide sufficient quality).
I recently looked back at what I've shot over the years, and noticed I was the most productive/creative with smaller/lighter/simpler camera systems. In a quest to get 'perfect' color, I ended up with the C300 II (which still needed color tuning), and it sat on a tripod almost the entire time I owned it (now sold). That camera was way overkill for what we needed, and after trying it on a gimbal realized that it was too big/heavy for our needs (to really use it would have required even more rigging+complexity). As you know, even if you're just practicing or producing something not for profit, LA requires permits, so if you don't look like a tourist, or have a fully rigged up cinema camera, getting hassled / fined is a possibility (we shot a PSA on drug addiction in an alley in BH at night (FS700) where I used a flashlight to light the model. Beverly Hills PD stopped and questioned us; fortunately let us go once we explained what we were doing. If we were doing a paid/pro shoot of course we'd get permits (and have the client(s) pay for it).
After going on this journey, it's pretty amazing that ARRI has held the lead for so many years (the ALEV III sensor is now ancient in tech years). During that time everyone else has made a lot of progress on color science and sensors. I haven't shot with one yet, however it appears even Fuji X-T3 has caught and even perhaps passed Canon in color for skin tones. The Sony VENICE looks very good compared to the Alexa LF (skin tones and detail). It's clear Sony could put that color science in DSLRs (or other downstream cameras). The point being in the Canon forum is that Cx00's and DSLRs in general can now do very well vs. ARRI cameras for color and skin tones; not quite there in usable DR and over/underexposure recovery, though color invariance with exposure is looking pretty good on the latest cameras.
If Eric ever has the free time, I'd love to see my best color tuning settings for the C300 II (he has it (FSeWDR H etc.)) shot against the Amira in the same exact conditions with WB set correctly to see how close color-tuned Canon does against ARRI. Or if anyone else who has access to a C200/C300 II/C700 FF and an ARRI camera is curious and uses those cameras as B cameras etc.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
I just bought a second Arri Amira. Put in a bid on Ebay for a third, but didn't win. I should probably get some CN-e primes before getting a third, though. Around half of my shoots in general are multi-camera.
rob norton
Veteran
Why are you leaning towards the CN-e primes? Are you considering other lenses?
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
Because they'll match up with my CN-e zooms and L-series lenses, are faster than many other cinema prime options, are popular and thus a good choice from a marketing standpoint (producers know the name and have requested them), and affordable (compared to say Leica Summilux-C lenses at $40k per lens). I would like a set of those Leicas for around $300k. Maybe some day. I did work with one DP who personally owned a full set of Summilux-Cs, though he did leave them at a rental house he'd partnered with to get additional rentals out of them, along with taking a loan to get them. I haven't done loans for any of my equipment; I'm currently 100% debt free.
The other big lens purchase I'm planning to get in the more near term is the Canon 17-120. 17-120 for run n gun style work, CN-e primes for more controlled work. I've been leaning toward adding the primes first and then the 17-120.
The Angeniux zooms are better regarded at the high end than Canons. I haven't used or researched them much, perhaps Bill can chime in on why the Angeniuix may be better as I'd guess he's used them. I feel like I'd want to upgrade from the CN-e primes before upgrading the cinema zooms. The Arri 18-80 T/2.6 has a nice range and T-stop, but is pretty heavy at around 10 lbs.
The other big lens purchase I'm planning to get in the more near term is the Canon 17-120. 17-120 for run n gun style work, CN-e primes for more controlled work. I've been leaning toward adding the primes first and then the 17-120.
The Angeniux zooms are better regarded at the high end than Canons. I haven't used or researched them much, perhaps Bill can chime in on why the Angeniuix may be better as I'd guess he's used them. I feel like I'd want to upgrade from the CN-e primes before upgrading the cinema zooms. The Arri 18-80 T/2.6 has a nice range and T-stop, but is pretty heavy at around 10 lbs.
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The exact combo we’re pitching for network sports eng coverage is the Amira with the 17-120. Let’s see if they want to spend 70k+. Funny how the smaller camera market has made finance forget that the old ENG cameras and lenses costed just as much. Now you pitch a kit in that price range and they laugh.
bill totolo
Veteran
Good question Eric,
I own the CN-E light weight zooms, I like them very much, but that can be a polarizing topic here in LA. I've met DP's who swear by them and a couple who really don't like them.
I know Dave Klein converted "Homeland" over to Canon zooms from Angenieux.
Physically the Canons are smaller, lighter and sharper than the Angies. I haven't charted the Angenieux but I'm told they're excellent.
I like my Canons because they are classic Japanese style zooms, meaning they have modern mechanics, are easy to work on and very robust. They require very little maintenance and have a nice back focus adjustment. Regards to the coatings, you love them or hate them, there is a unique color to skin tones but it is very easily dialed out in post if you don't care for it. It's a little rosey on caucasian skin.
From what I understand Canons are rented more often on the East Coast while Angenieux is popular on the West Coast. Maybe some rental agents can chime in.
I feel the Canon CN-E zooms are Hollywood's dirty little secret, whenever I'm on a set or occasionally when I shoot some bts for a big feature, there's always a set on a 2nd or third camera.
A few screen grabs taken with the CN-E zooms:
Canon 30-105:
Canon 15.5-47
Canon CN-E 30-300:
Canon 30-300 + Amira on 24' jib arm.
I own the CN-E light weight zooms, I like them very much, but that can be a polarizing topic here in LA. I've met DP's who swear by them and a couple who really don't like them.
I know Dave Klein converted "Homeland" over to Canon zooms from Angenieux.
Physically the Canons are smaller, lighter and sharper than the Angies. I haven't charted the Angenieux but I'm told they're excellent.
I like my Canons because they are classic Japanese style zooms, meaning they have modern mechanics, are easy to work on and very robust. They require very little maintenance and have a nice back focus adjustment. Regards to the coatings, you love them or hate them, there is a unique color to skin tones but it is very easily dialed out in post if you don't care for it. It's a little rosey on caucasian skin.
From what I understand Canons are rented more often on the East Coast while Angenieux is popular on the West Coast. Maybe some rental agents can chime in.
I feel the Canon CN-E zooms are Hollywood's dirty little secret, whenever I'm on a set or occasionally when I shoot some bts for a big feature, there's always a set on a 2nd or third camera.
A few screen grabs taken with the CN-E zooms:
Canon 30-105:
Canon 15.5-47
Canon CN-E 30-300:
Canon 30-300 + Amira on 24' jib arm.
bill totolo
Veteran
That will be a heavy camera, will you be using an easyrig?
Run&Gun
Veteran
I pretty much have the exact package that Eric is wanting to add: a full set of CN-E primes and the 17-120. I don’t own any of the other Canon Cine zooms, but I have a client that has a lot of nice Cine zoom glass, including the 30-105 and I have shot with it and like it.
I’ve said it before, that I think the only thing that has really held the CN-E primes back from even more widespread acceptance is the lack of a native PL version(I know Duclos does a paid aftermarket conversion).
People that shoot them, generally love them. They make people look good. I don’t think they’re “too warm” or “rosey”, but they make people look “healthy”. Good skin tones. I had a friend that would rent mine, because the client really liked the combo of Sony F5/55’s and the Canon’s. But for some reason he ended up recently buying Zeiss cp.3’s... Don’t know if he’s looking at it from a marketing perspective or he saw something he liked better, in them.
The 17-120 is probably one of the best purchases I’ve made in the last few years. It’s just so damn versatile. I’ve rented it out and it’s landed me on jobs, because I had it. I also had the IBE/Abel UMS swappable mount system put on mine so that I can go from PL to EF. I can actually use any of the UMS mounts on it, but the rest are all “dumb” with no power/data connections. The biggest downside with the 17-120 is it’s damn heavy. And it’s not just that it’s heavy, it’s unbalanced. The majority of the weight is in the front element in front of the lens grip. Using an external grip or other controller is pretty much mandatory for any extended shooting with it. But it’s the only lens out there like it. Oh yeah, it looks good, too. Lol.
I’ve said it before, that I think the only thing that has really held the CN-E primes back from even more widespread acceptance is the lack of a native PL version(I know Duclos does a paid aftermarket conversion).
People that shoot them, generally love them. They make people look good. I don’t think they’re “too warm” or “rosey”, but they make people look “healthy”. Good skin tones. I had a friend that would rent mine, because the client really liked the combo of Sony F5/55’s and the Canon’s. But for some reason he ended up recently buying Zeiss cp.3’s... Don’t know if he’s looking at it from a marketing perspective or he saw something he liked better, in them.
The 17-120 is probably one of the best purchases I’ve made in the last few years. It’s just so damn versatile. I’ve rented it out and it’s landed me on jobs, because I had it. I also had the IBE/Abel UMS swappable mount system put on mine so that I can go from PL to EF. I can actually use any of the UMS mounts on it, but the rest are all “dumb” with no power/data connections. The biggest downside with the 17-120 is it’s damn heavy. And it’s not just that it’s heavy, it’s unbalanced. The majority of the weight is in the front element in front of the lens grip. Using an external grip or other controller is pretty much mandatory for any extended shooting with it. But it’s the only lens out there like it. Oh yeah, it looks good, too. Lol.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
I did a big musical performance shoot this week and the 20' Jimmy Jib that served as b-camera flew an EVA 1 with the 17-120 on it, sweet lens.
No easyrig. It’s for run n gun purposes with no time for setup. It would mostly live on tripods but of course there are plenty of handheld situations as well. This is to upgrade Sony 800’s with Canon B4 wide angles on them. I think it’s like a pound heavier than those setups. I do know that the difference is in the front element having the brunt of the weight on the 17-120.
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rob norton
Veteran
Does it bother you there's no 18/20mm? The Amira/17-120mm seems like a dream come true.
Haha congrats on being debt free, I am jealous and trying very hard to adopt this business model, although it doesn't always work out like that!
Personally owning that Leica set is crazy, I hope the guy sees a return!
bill totolo
Veteran
Canon just released a 20mm cine prime.
https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1399826-REG/canon_3174c002_cn_e_20mm_t1_5_l.html
rob norton
Veteran
Cool, thanks Bill.
Run&Gun
Veteran
The set of seven primes is less than $26K, five of the seven are T1.5 or T1.3 and they all will cover a "full frame" sensor. A few of the CN-E focal lengths were used on Netflix's Altered Carbon that was shot on the Alexa 65.
I was thinking about adding the 20mm after they announced it last year, but my next lens addition may be the Sigma Cine 105 T1.5. I'm supposed to receive a demo lens from Sigma this coming week.
I was thinking about adding the 20mm after they announced it last year, but my next lens addition may be the Sigma Cine 105 T1.5. I'm supposed to receive a demo lens from Sigma this coming week.
niki
Active member
Hey Bill
The photography...go see it!
I’m just glad I didn’t buy a mini as well..... (but that’s up to everyone and their needs)
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Just curious, it sounds like you are deep in the Canon CN-E primes, are you not able to cover what you need between the 85mm and the 135? From my recent tests the color from the Sigmas should cut pretty well between the CN-Es and the Sigmas, both lenses are fairly neutral in my experience. Although I just tested against my Canon still lenses. So the CN-Es match the coatings and color science of the Canon still lenses, I assume? I thought the CN-E CS 18-80 t/4.4 and the 70-200 t/4.4 did when I had them in for testing but I've never compared the primes.
Eric Coughlin
Veteran
It's pretty misguided to watch one movie, not like how it looked, and conclude the camera is not good. Considering I'd guess around 70% of big budget movies are shot on Arri digital now and the Alexa Mini has the same sensor and image as its other family members such as the Alexa XT, Amira, LF, and 65 (the latter two which have the same image, just larger sensor resulting in different field of view and higher resolution), the way to conclude the Alexa Mini image is not good would be to watch a bunch of movies shot on Arri digital and still not like the look (which judging by your post history probably just means you prefer the look of film, not that you think the Alexa Mini doesn't look good for a digital image). Eastwood has often gone for a muted desaturated look even when shooting on film. The Alexa Mini has been used on an awful lot of great looking movies such as Blade Runner 2049.
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Run&Gun
Veteran
The L still lenses and CN-E's actually have different coatings. Someone did an A/B test several years ago with the L's and same focal length CN-E equivalents. Shot identical scenes with one then the other. You could see subtle differences. The still lenses are a tad cooler, in comparison. But nothing that can't be easily fixed. And a lot of people would never notice the differences.
Most of my prime usage is for sit-downs and I'm usually working with the longer focal lengths: 85 and 135. So the 105/T1.5 really intrigues me and I want to see it in person and see if it "does something for me". I asked one of my reps what they've been hearing since they've been shipping for a little bit, now. Said they have a Venice owner that bought a set and is on one of the big traveling food shows and they're really happy with the images. My rep also said they have rejected some when they've QC'd them before shipping them out to customers. But said Sigma has changed some of their QC protocols and practices/procedures recently, too, and that's helped. I think that's one of the big reasons to not buy things like that from the big box type dealers like B&H. They don't have a tech actually check-out and prep your lenses or cameras.
puredrifting
Major Contributor
Fortunately I am 45 minutes from the new West Coast Sigma HQ that opened in Burbank a few months ago so I can go and try out any new Sigma lens there. As far as QC, they have a Collimation bench there, techs, etc. so if I bought a Sigma that was operating less than perfectly, I would have good resources. I agree, something as personal as lenses, probably best to pay a bit more and buy from a good local retailer who has this kind of support (Duclos, Abel, Band Pro, etc.)