MagicBullet for Audio

Spartacus

Spartacus

Veteran
How come there isn´t sth like MB for the audio?
As MB doesn´t replace a good colorist, "MagicBulletAudio" of course wouldn´t replace a good audio expert.
But I´d really like some plug-in that would offer simple (understandable for the video guy) presets that eg would clean up a male voice, suppress unwanted sounds, compress the track and give it a "bigger" sound.
Yes there are compressors and equaliziers and it probably is all there, just not in an interface the non-pro can easily get used to.
Most MB looks also need some tweaking to look good on the chosen material, but this still happens very user friendly.
I do my best to gather good sound on lacation or in the studio in the first place, but that´s where it ends for me.
Maybe I just have to look for editors who know how to work sound too, but audio seems to always be neglected a little...
I should stop whining now.:beer:
 
Soundbooth works specially well with Premiere. You can access SB directly from Premiere. The spectral view for freehand sound removal is ingenious too.

T
 
I use FCS2, Soundtrack probably has all the bells and whistles too, but I was hoping for a FCP plugin I just could pull on the audio track...
Just my lazy me.:beer:
 
Variations in program material make any kind of preset "magic bullet" impractical for audio. I don't know about "Soundbooth", but I do know pro audio. It's what I've done for a living for a very long time.

Magic Bullet for video is not really the equivalent of a 'fix-all' for audio anyway. It's an additive process - more equivalent to adding reverb for example, than a general eq/comp/noise cleaner-upper. Reverb presets are indeed available that will create the equivalent of a 'look' for the audio - put it in a space like an auditorium, living room, kitchen - what have you. Altiverb is particularly notable for things like this.

But otherwise, if what you need is basic processing I'm afraid you're gonna have to learn to drive the bus. There are many good books on this. While it's primarily aimed at music recording, "Modern Recording Techniques" by Huber/Runstein is an excellent source for general knowledge of audio tools and techniques:

http://www.amazon.com/Modern-Record...=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1225119160&sr=8-1
 
I have the Jay Rose "Producing Great Sound...", but it doesn´t offer a lot on the post side (he has another one for this I believe...).
Anyways maybe there is an online tutorial on enhancing voices/speech for simple projects?
Maybe my MB comparisson didn´t fit, maybe I´m more looking for an analog to: Apply an S-curve, set white and black point, boost/reduce saturation a little, aso...
 
Spartacus said:
I have the Jay Rose "Producing Great Sound...", but it doesn´t offer a lot on the post side (he has another one for this I believe...).
Anyways maybe there is an online tutorial on enhancing voices/speech for simple projects?
Maybe my MB comparisson didn´t fit, maybe I´m more looking for an analog to: Apply an S-curve, set white and black point, boost/reduce saturation a little, aso...
Click to expand...

I think the fundamental problem is that audio is a fluid medium. Video is in frames, so it can to a substantial extent be viewed and quantified as a static entity. There is no equivalent state for audio.

There are all-in-one plugins like "ChannelStrip" (Metric Halo) and others from many other companies, but you still need to know how to operate the controls and judge results by ear.

Having done voice processing about a bazillion times by now, I can tell you that each case is different, and that there is no preset that can be applied to all cases that will produce good results. Settings that are just the ticket in case A could completely screw up case B. Unfortunately it's all too easy to degrade the sound using the most basic of audio tools.

I don't think you'll find what you seek, sorry. But learning to use EQ, compression and noise reduction tools is not rocket science. You will need training and experience to use them well though, and a proper listening environment is key. Quality, wide range speakers, well set up, will be necessary for good results (headphones are not recommended except for cross referencing).

Best of luck to you.
 
Hey Ted,
thanks for the insight!
The book you listed seems like a very broad and detailed look on audio production, is there anything out there that focuses on dialog/speach/voices?
Idealy an online tutorial (doesn´t need to be free though), I just learn better when I see things...
Don´t get me wrong, this may sound like "Just tell me how to shoot an interview, I don´t need to know how to shoot a ballroom scene...".
I´m always willing to expand my knowledge to other fields of production, but I´ll always feel more comfortable on the visual side;o)
 
I wrote a pretty comprehensive article for Ken Stone a number of years ago specifically about working with audio in FCP
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/audio_essentials_fcp_4.html


Jon Chappell just did a two part article specifically about FCP's audio filters
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/basic_audio_filter_guide.html
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/basic_audio_filter_guide_pt2.html

Personally I have found the audio processing in FCP to be substandard, STP sounds much better. STP also has much better audio filters than FCP. Yes, I wrote an article on how to use ST, although this was written before Soundtrack Pro went "Pro" but I believe that many of the audio filters in STP are the same as they were back when I wrote this one
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/soundtrack_editors.html

There audio samples that will show you what each of the EMagic audio plug-ins actually sounds like.

I agree with Ted, MBL is for noodling around with the look of the picture, it's not for color correction and repair just as FCP's audio tools are okay for minor tweaks but if you really want to polish your audio, you need to move to STP or better yet, Pro Tools. Oh yeah, and you need years of practice and training, an audio environment that is acoustically tuned and correct, an accurate pair of studio monitors that will shock you as far as their expense and you need time and patience. Sound editing, until you are expert at it, is very time consuming, especially dialogue editing.

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
better yet, Pro Tools. Oh yeah, and you need years of practice and training, an audio environment that is acoustically tuned and correct, an accurate pair of studio monitors that will shock you as far as their expense and you need time and patience. Sound editing, until you are expert at it, is very time consuming, especially dialogue editing.

Dan
Click to expand...

+1.

And as with any art/craft, part of it is learning the tools and how to handle them and the other part is knowing the medium and what it needs.

First (maybe) is getting to know the frequencies. Here's a mildly off-topic example.

I recently cleaned up a cassette of sounds of the seven chakras made probably in the 1970s. I'm reading the follow-along text that describes the frequencies I'm supposed to be hearing for each chakra. I don't have perfect pitch, but I'm not hearing what the text indicates.

There's a lot of low end on all seven tracks; anywhere from 50-60 Hz to 400-500 Hz. To prove it to myself, I brought the samples into STP and looked the the spectral view.
Yup, the text didn't match the sounds. When I mentioned that to the client, they made a call and found that the originator had stopped using those sounds and text years ago.

The sounds could have been correct, but if they were, the person who wrote the text was smoking something.

Lighting Directors have the same sort of job, just different frequencies of energy.

Regards,

Ty Ford
 
Ted Spencer said:
I haven't read it yet, but "Producing Great Sound for Film and Video" by Jay Rose looks like it might be a good bet:

1
http://www.amazon.com/Producing-Great-Sound-Video-Expert/dp/024080970X/ref=si3_rdr_bb_product
Click to expand...

Hey Ted, two post before yours I wrote, that that´s the book I have on audio production, but it´s very limited on the post side...
I was hoping for someone to recommend a book or tutorial focusing on speach/dialoge enhancement.
But thanks anyway!
 
puredrifting said:
I wrote a pretty comprehensive article for Ken Stone a number of years ago specifically about working with audio in FCP
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/audio_essentials_fcp_4.html


Jon Chappell just did a two part article specifically about FCP's audio filters
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/basic_audio_filter_guide.html
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/basic_audio_filter_guide_pt2.html

Personally I have found the audio processing in FCP to be substandard, STP sounds much better. STP also has much better audio filters than FCP. Yes, I wrote an article on how to use ST, although this was written before Soundtrack Pro went "Pro" but I believe that many of the audio filters in STP are the same as they were back when I wrote this one
http://www.kenstone.net/fcp_homepage/soundtrack_editors.html

There audio samples that will show you what each of the EMagic audio plug-ins actually sounds like.

I agree with Ted, MBL is for noodling around with the look of the picture, it's not for color correction and repair just as FCP's audio tools are okay for minor tweaks but if you really want to polish your audio, you need to move to STP or better yet, Pro Tools. Oh yeah, and you need years of practice and training, an audio environment that is acoustically tuned and correct, an accurate pair of studio monitors that will shock you as far as their expense and you need time and patience. Sound editing, until you are expert at it, is very time consuming, especially dialogue editing.

Dan
Click to expand...

Thanks for all the links Dan!
I use a Tascam FW1082 interface and Event nearfields for monitoring, along with AKG Studio K271 headphones.
I will also redesign the editing suite soon, taking better care of accoustics.

Again, I come from the camera side, but find myself more and more in the situation of being a director, who also takes care of editing.
I never get complaints about audio, but besides using good mics and trying to get the best recording possible under the given circumstances, I don´t do much postpro on audio...

What would you guys do to a "normal" piece of speach/dialoge, sth for Broadcast or DVD, like interviews, small reports, short docs?
Equalize and then compress?
I understand that the needs will vary, but isn´t there a "general treatment", let´s say for audio that was recorded well and just needs to get a "punch"...?
:dankk2:
 
Spartacus said:
Thanks for all the links Dan!
I use a Tascam FW1082 interface and Event nearfields for monitoring, along with AKG Studio K271 headphones.
I will also redesign the editing suite soon, taking better care of accoustics.

Again, I come from the camera side, but find myself more and more in the situation of being a director, who also takes care of editing.
I never get complaints about audio, but besides using good mics and trying to get the best recording possible under the given circumstances, I don´t do much postpro on audio...

What would you guys do to a "normal" piece of speach/dialoge, sth for Broadcast or DVD, like interviews, small reports, short docs?
Equalize and then compress?
I understand that the needs will vary, but isn´t there a "general treatment", let´s say for audio that was recorded well and just needs to get a "punch"...?
:dankk2:
Click to expand...

Hi:

No, I think it is always different and it always depends on where and how the final mix will be listened to. The same mix wil not function on laptop speakers and 7.1 theatrical.

It sounds as if you are seeking a one size fits all methodology. It just doesn't work that way with audio. Some material is well recorded and might need just a little EQing, some material is well recorded but the needs of the end product dictate a special treatment for the medium like a lot of compression for playback on smaller, lower quality systems to reduce dynamic range.

Then there is the most likely scenario, which is that the sound was not well recorded and has problems. More time is always spent trying to salvage poor quality audio than enhancing well recorded audio because most DVXers don't or cannot afford to hire a professional location sound mixer.

If you have FCS available, my advice to you would be to purchase the new STP training DVD from Ripple Training and learn STP inside out. As far as learning about audio in general, I would read some of the recommended books listed here like Jay's book and there are many others. Without a foundation in sound basics, knowing all of the buttons, knobs and plug-ins in the world won't do much for you. Nobody can answer in a single post how you learn sound. A non-carpenter can learn how to use a drill but it takes a carpenter know where to drill and why, right?

Dan
 
puredrifting said:
It sounds as if you are seeking a one size fits all methodology. It just doesn't work that way with audio. Some material is well recorded and might need just a little EQing, some material is well recorded but the needs of the end product dictate a special treatment for the medium like a lot of compression for playback on smaller, lower quality systems to reduce dynamic range.
Click to expand...

Look at it this way: video has three basic points of control: red, green, and blue. Yes, there are more when you add hue, saturation, gamma, etc. But it's all based on three colors.

Audio is based on nearly 20,000 different points of control, from 20Hz to 20kHz. And because there is no "white balance" setting on a mic or audio recorder, the door is wide open for great inconsistency in audio.
 
Spartacus said:
Hey Ted, two post before yours I wrote, that that´s the book I have on audio production, but it´s very limited on the post side...
I was hoping for someone to recommend a book or tutorial focusing on speach/dialoge enhancement.
But thanks anyway!
Click to expand...

Doh! Sorry about that....
 
Audio is also much less naturally intuitive I believe. Most people can see something and select one that they prefer or notice a difference even if it is subtle. People generally have much more difficulty distinguishing between audio signals.

A lot of the tools are actually quite subtle unless they are used to an extreme and this makes it difficult for beginners to evaluate their changes. Couple this with sort of unintuitive rules for making things work, and the end result is you need practice and experience. There is no Magic Bullet approach.
 
Spartacus said:
Hey Ted, two post before yours I wrote, that that´s the book I have on audio production, but it´s very limited on the post side...
I was hoping for someone to recommend a book or tutorial focusing on speach/dialoge enhancement.
But thanks anyway!
Click to expand...

So how about Jay's other book, "Audio Postproduction for Film and Video"? (A new third edition was just released.)
 
tigeba said:
Audio is also much less naturally intuitive I believe. Most people can see something and select one that they prefer or notice a difference even if it is subtle. People generally have much more difficulty distinguishing between audio signals.

A lot of the tools are actually quite subtle unless they are used to an extreme and this makes it difficult for beginners to evaluate their changes. Couple this with sort of unintuitive rules for making things work, and the end result is you need practice and experience. There is no Magic Bullet approach.
Click to expand...

I've found it surprisingly difficult to explain the workings of something as basic as a compressor in a way that people (including some pretty experienced musician/producers) can understand.

On the other hand, I sure didn't understand it at first either.

And I realized quite some time ago that the learning curve when dealing with sound recording and mixing will never really flatten out...
 
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