morgan_moore
Major Contributor
C100?
Low-mid budget Run and Gun cameras in 2021? Sony Fs3?
- Thread starter junct
- Start date
junct
Active member
I think I have a subconcious bias against the blackmagic cameras. They always felt like more of a (great) drama production camera, with their various limitations back in the day (namely poor battery, overheating and poor low light). It sounds like they've really upped their game in those departments that might make them more viable in a run and gun, one man band situation..
I can live without good Autofocus, it's more of a "damn, that'd be really nice to have" - but I've rolled without it ever since I learnt how to turn on a camera. The same for infinitely variable ND. And EVF doesn't matter too much - it can be nice, but since I'm usually only operating a camera in a 1-2 man crew scenario, I'm rarely on the EVF. I did shoot an interview the other day through EVF (my gh4 flip screen died - literally moments before the producer face timed me to sign off on composition and lighting), and it's not really a viable way to shoot this content, where I need to engage a subject and pay attention to audio at the same time.
I haven't given Canon's cameras much of a look in recent times. They've fallen out of favour with folks over here, as Panasonic, Sony and Blackmagic seem to have taken over their place in both the compact/hybrid/low budget space, and in the medium budget video camera space. I'll have to look and it a bit closer and see how they compare now.
junct
Active member
One of the very first semi-pro shoots I worked on was with one of the first generation blackmagic cameras. I wasn't in the camera dept, but there were a lot of conversations about how hot their rig was and fan noises in some cramped locations. Granted, there were likely many other factors at play, along with it being a memory distorted over time! I'll stand corrected
ahalpert
Major Contributor
If I didn't want AF, I would probably get the P6K Pro. And you can save $500 with it if you don't need the EVF.
I think what you really want is the FX6, but of course that is much more expensive.
Or you could get the Panasonic s5 with their xlr1 audio adapter, which combined are about the same cost as the P6k Pro without EVF. You would get great IBIS but lose the ND.
What is your preferred shooting style/rig?
I think what you really want is the FX6, but of course that is much more expensive.
Or you could get the Panasonic s5 with their xlr1 audio adapter, which combined are about the same cost as the P6k Pro without EVF. You would get great IBIS but lose the ND.
What is your preferred shooting style/rig?
junct
Active member
Yeah, the fx6 is very close to the camera I would want, if I was doing enough operating work to justify that kind of investment.
The s5 is an interesting camera, as well. Haven’t seen too many people shooting video with it, which is maybe a little surprising.
as for shooting style and rig... well part of the motivation to change is to find a simpler, more balanced and ergonomic rig. The gh4 with cage and bits lashed on top, in front etc was unwieldy, unbalanced and fiddly at times. That’s why a body designed for more handheld use, with physical buttons, well placed XLR inputs etc has appeal.
I’m shooting in changeable situations, with micro crews (either one man band “corporate doc”/videography stuff, or micro crew Indie doc where I’m working with the subject directly - I try to be a b-cam in these situations, but I’m not always). So my shooting style needs to be quick to adapt, Easy to move quickly into position to grab shots as things are happening live, able to manage variable natural lighting, and particularly, operatable when wearing multiple hats (sometimes monitoring audio, always working with an on-screen subject). Hence EVF not being important to me, and hence Sony’s recent autofocus advancements being very intriguing.
Yeah - it could very well have been an external monitor or recorder issue as well, as I recall some of those earlier affordable models having heating and fan issues as well.
The s5 is an interesting camera, as well. Haven’t seen too many people shooting video with it, which is maybe a little surprising.
as for shooting style and rig... well part of the motivation to change is to find a simpler, more balanced and ergonomic rig. The gh4 with cage and bits lashed on top, in front etc was unwieldy, unbalanced and fiddly at times. That’s why a body designed for more handheld use, with physical buttons, well placed XLR inputs etc has appeal.
I’m shooting in changeable situations, with micro crews (either one man band “corporate doc”/videography stuff, or micro crew Indie doc where I’m working with the subject directly - I try to be a b-cam in these situations, but I’m not always). So my shooting style needs to be quick to adapt, Easy to move quickly into position to grab shots as things are happening live, able to manage variable natural lighting, and particularly, operatable when wearing multiple hats (sometimes monitoring audio, always working with an on-screen subject). Hence EVF not being important to me, and hence Sony’s recent autofocus advancements being very intriguing.
Yeah - it could very well have been an external monitor or recorder issue as well, as I recall some of those earlier affordable models having heating and fan issues as well.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
If you just want autofocus good enough to grab a face and hold it, then the Panasonic S5 may do the trick. the camera has the benefits of working with an xlr adapter attachment and having IBIS good enough that you can basically shoot without a rig. The S5 is pretty new. I've never seen one in real life yet.
If I'm holding the grip of a mirrorless camera, it's easy for me to change exposure and even white balance. The Panasonic xlr1 adapter has physical dials for audio controls.
What functions do you use frequently on the camera (swifch6ing to slow motion, etc)? And what accessories do you usually rig?
If I'm holding the grip of a mirrorless camera, it's easy for me to change exposure and even white balance. The Panasonic xlr1 adapter has physical dials for audio controls.
What functions do you use frequently on the camera (swifch6ing to slow motion, etc)? And what accessories do you usually rig?
junct
Active member
Yeah, the s5 is pretty appealing - it does seem like it compromises on a few useful features for video vs the gh5/gh5s, with the major bonus being the larger sensor (and presumably superior low light performance).
Functions
I use slow motion a lot, especially on corporate jobs. Otherwise I'm constantly dialling in exposure when moving to new locations on tight time frames, following subjects, or shooting with natural and thus variable light. White balance is easy to set on the gh4. Outside of those "settings" I've accepted the practicality of zooms in these situations where I'm not sure what kind of space I'm shooting in until I get there and have a limited amount of time to set up - though I very much dislike the manual focus rings on most modern zooms. I'm trying to keep an eye on the histogram, focus peaking and zebra stripes. I'm also monitoring and sometimes riding audio levels, if doing a sit down interview - but I am looking to upgrade my audio gear to 32-bit recorders to simplify that process.
Accessories
Normally I have a cage. Sometimes attached to cage, sometimes not, I'm using an audio recorder, shotgun (sometimes on top sometimes on a stand - primary audio has been tascam dr10s with Mke-2s), shoulder rig (pocket rig - it's not great, other than it's packability), tripod that converts to a monopod (it's way too slow to convert to monopod, so it's only in one mode or the other). My set up is very franken-rig-ish, and could be turned into something better balanced with upgrades and replacements. I always intended to add a monitor/recorder to that set up and to buy the v-log upgrade for the gh4, but with how unbalanced my rig was I haven't due to not really seeing how I would make it work feasibly + now not wanting to sink more money into a 7 year old camera.
I plan to replace a lot of this gear. Dual audio is great, but for most of the shooting I do, it's impractical. I'll likely replace my dr10s with 32 bit recorders (tentacle sync seems great, but I don't need timecode so it's probably hard to pass up the zoom f2s at half the price), and replace my audio recorder with a decent xlr input/pre-amp for the shotgun if I keep within the SLR camera body form factor - but inbuilt XLR inputs have appeal as well.
I'd like to replace my cage and shoulder rig with probably a sturdier shoulder rig that can quickly go on and off a tripod, and put a monitor/recorder behind, rather than on top of, the camera for better balance.
Functions
I use slow motion a lot, especially on corporate jobs. Otherwise I'm constantly dialling in exposure when moving to new locations on tight time frames, following subjects, or shooting with natural and thus variable light. White balance is easy to set on the gh4. Outside of those "settings" I've accepted the practicality of zooms in these situations where I'm not sure what kind of space I'm shooting in until I get there and have a limited amount of time to set up - though I very much dislike the manual focus rings on most modern zooms. I'm trying to keep an eye on the histogram, focus peaking and zebra stripes. I'm also monitoring and sometimes riding audio levels, if doing a sit down interview - but I am looking to upgrade my audio gear to 32-bit recorders to simplify that process.
Accessories
Normally I have a cage. Sometimes attached to cage, sometimes not, I'm using an audio recorder, shotgun (sometimes on top sometimes on a stand - primary audio has been tascam dr10s with Mke-2s), shoulder rig (pocket rig - it's not great, other than it's packability), tripod that converts to a monopod (it's way too slow to convert to monopod, so it's only in one mode or the other). My set up is very franken-rig-ish, and could be turned into something better balanced with upgrades and replacements. I always intended to add a monitor/recorder to that set up and to buy the v-log upgrade for the gh4, but with how unbalanced my rig was I haven't due to not really seeing how I would make it work feasibly + now not wanting to sink more money into a 7 year old camera.
I plan to replace a lot of this gear. Dual audio is great, but for most of the shooting I do, it's impractical. I'll likely replace my dr10s with 32 bit recorders (tentacle sync seems great, but I don't need timecode so it's probably hard to pass up the zoom f2s at half the price), and replace my audio recorder with a decent xlr input/pre-amp for the shotgun if I keep within the SLR camera body form factor - but inbuilt XLR inputs have appeal as well.
I'd like to replace my cage and shoulder rig with probably a sturdier shoulder rig that can quickly go on and off a tripod, and put a monitor/recorder behind, rather than on top of, the camera for better balance.
ahalpert
Major Contributor
If you want to buy a camera right now, I think I would recommend the S5 with the XLR1 adapter and probably either the Panasonic 24-105mm OR the Panasonic 20-60mm lens plus another lens with a faster aperture (maybe the panasonic 85mm f/1.8 or maybe a manual focus lens even from another mount)
The Panasonic S5 has an S&Q setting on the mode dial, which would make it very fast to switch between slow motion and regular speed. (The one catch is that you can only shoot 4K slow motion with the aps-c crop, so you lose your wide-angle which is partly why the 20-60 would be useful because it starts out very wide. You can shoot HD slow motion without a crop, however.)
Then you have solid exposure and white balance controls on the body. The XLR1 adapter has dials for audio levels. And if you use a variable ND filter, you can control your ND manually. So, you should end up with physical buttons and dials to do everything you need without digging into the menu.
The ergonomic disadvantage relative to a proper video camera is somewhat mitigated by having such good IBIS. You can bare-hand the camera or use it with an imperfectly balanced or cheap shoulder mount or monopod and get really good results.
The autofocus is not as fast in keeping up with moving objects as Canon or Sony, but it should work quite well for keeping someone's face in focus during an interview, which should mitigate your need to have a monitor. Of course, you will need native lenses to get good autofocus.
The camera records 10-bit 4:2:2 4K internally with v-log (10-bit 4:2:0 4K in slow motion), which should mitigate your need to have a recorder. The camera also have a waveform monitor built in. You can also download custom LUTs to the camera for monitoring. Sometimes people need a monitor to do either of those things, but the camera has the innate abilities. So, basically, I wouldn't bother adding a monitor or recorder.
When you use the XLR1 adapter, you will definitely have a bit of weight above the camera. But if you're on a monopod or shoulder rig, it probably won't bug you too much. And with a mirrorless camera, unlike a proper video camera, you can strip it down to just the body and shoot discreetly and the IBIS will mean you don't need to use a rig at all.
The low-light performance will shock you coming from the GH4. I own a GH2, GH4, GH5, and I used to own an S1 (which is pretty similar to the S5) before I sold the S1 and bought an A7SIII for better autofocus and no-crop 4K slow motion. (The A7SIII has much worse IBIS than the Panasonic, however). The dynamic range on the S5 is also much, much better than the Gh4 even if you got v-log for the GH4.
Check out the newsshooter review of the S5: https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/09/02/panasonic-lumix-s5-review/
S5 with 20-60: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ic_dc_s5mk_lumix_dcs5_mirrorless_digital.html
xlr1 adapter: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304877-REG/panasonic_dmw_xlr1_xlr_microphone_adapter.html
24-105: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1455076-REG/panasonic_s_r24105_lumix_s_24_105mm_f_4.html
85: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1601246-REG/panasonic_s_s85_lumix_s_85mm_f_1_8.html/reviews
The Panasonic S5 has an S&Q setting on the mode dial, which would make it very fast to switch between slow motion and regular speed. (The one catch is that you can only shoot 4K slow motion with the aps-c crop, so you lose your wide-angle which is partly why the 20-60 would be useful because it starts out very wide. You can shoot HD slow motion without a crop, however.)
Then you have solid exposure and white balance controls on the body. The XLR1 adapter has dials for audio levels. And if you use a variable ND filter, you can control your ND manually. So, you should end up with physical buttons and dials to do everything you need without digging into the menu.
The ergonomic disadvantage relative to a proper video camera is somewhat mitigated by having such good IBIS. You can bare-hand the camera or use it with an imperfectly balanced or cheap shoulder mount or monopod and get really good results.
The autofocus is not as fast in keeping up with moving objects as Canon or Sony, but it should work quite well for keeping someone's face in focus during an interview, which should mitigate your need to have a monitor. Of course, you will need native lenses to get good autofocus.
The camera records 10-bit 4:2:2 4K internally with v-log (10-bit 4:2:0 4K in slow motion), which should mitigate your need to have a recorder. The camera also have a waveform monitor built in. You can also download custom LUTs to the camera for monitoring. Sometimes people need a monitor to do either of those things, but the camera has the innate abilities. So, basically, I wouldn't bother adding a monitor or recorder.
When you use the XLR1 adapter, you will definitely have a bit of weight above the camera. But if you're on a monopod or shoulder rig, it probably won't bug you too much. And with a mirrorless camera, unlike a proper video camera, you can strip it down to just the body and shoot discreetly and the IBIS will mean you don't need to use a rig at all.
The low-light performance will shock you coming from the GH4. I own a GH2, GH4, GH5, and I used to own an S1 (which is pretty similar to the S5) before I sold the S1 and bought an A7SIII for better autofocus and no-crop 4K slow motion. (The A7SIII has much worse IBIS than the Panasonic, however). The dynamic range on the S5 is also much, much better than the Gh4 even if you got v-log for the GH4.
Check out the newsshooter review of the S5: https://www.newsshooter.com/2020/09/02/panasonic-lumix-s5-review/
S5 with 20-60: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/prod...ic_dc_s5mk_lumix_dcs5_mirrorless_digital.html
xlr1 adapter: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1304877-REG/panasonic_dmw_xlr1_xlr_microphone_adapter.html
24-105: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1455076-REG/panasonic_s_r24105_lumix_s_24_105mm_f_4.html
85: https://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/1601246-REG/panasonic_s_s85_lumix_s_85mm_f_1_8.html/reviews
junct
Active member
Thanks ahalpert for your thoughts there! Very useful breakdown for sure.
And interesting point about IBIS being pretty useful VS Sony/Canon's better autofocus (and inferior stabilisation). Both are features that are a bit more forgiving on the kind of operating I do. Certainly Panasonic appeals as the aforementioned friend can usually get me a discount on their gear (though markup is apparently pretty low, so sometimes its no better than sales weekend prices from big box stores). Not needing an external monitor/recorder for most operations would be a big bonus (though I always appreciate a better and larger monitor than the camera's inbuilt).
Being much cheaper than the Sony a7sIII is interesting too.
The L mount, I haven't read too much about. From a brief google it doesn't look to tricky to adapt glass to (I have a few Canon FDs which I use when I'm under less time and multi task pressure).
It's a shame All-I isn't available on the s5, as it is on the Gh cameras.. and the lower max bit-rates.. But maybe that's a mostly theoretical difference.
And it's a shame that there's a record limit on the s5. 30 minutes is totally manageable, but a slight annoyance.
Certainly a compelling option...
And interesting point about IBIS being pretty useful VS Sony/Canon's better autofocus (and inferior stabilisation). Both are features that are a bit more forgiving on the kind of operating I do. Certainly Panasonic appeals as the aforementioned friend can usually get me a discount on their gear (though markup is apparently pretty low, so sometimes its no better than sales weekend prices from big box stores). Not needing an external monitor/recorder for most operations would be a big bonus (though I always appreciate a better and larger monitor than the camera's inbuilt).
Being much cheaper than the Sony a7sIII is interesting too.
The L mount, I haven't read too much about. From a brief google it doesn't look to tricky to adapt glass to (I have a few Canon FDs which I use when I'm under less time and multi task pressure).
It's a shame All-I isn't available on the s5, as it is on the Gh cameras.. and the lower max bit-rates.. But maybe that's a mostly theoretical difference.
And it's a shame that there's a record limit on the s5. 30 minutes is totally manageable, but a slight annoyance.
Certainly a compelling option...
NorBro
Major Contributor
If the S5 is compelling at $2K and ultimately All-I or a recording limit becomes a deal breaker, you might as well also consider the S1 for $2500 (there's only a limit in 4K/60p), which recently had a firmware update to become a much more powerful camera closer to the S1H.
In the grand scheme - when purchasing and using this kind of equipment and a variety of it - what's an extra $500? Or less with a sale (the S1 was on sale, brand new for $2K about a year ago).
In the grand scheme - when purchasing and using this kind of equipment and a variety of it - what's an extra $500? Or less with a sale (the S1 was on sale, brand new for $2K about a year ago).
junct
Active member
Well the S1 is currently on sale here at the same price as the s5. I was under the impression that the s5 had more of a video focus with features, when I was reading about it a few months back? Do the recent firmware updates address those things the s5 improved?
On Panasonics tech specs online, they list 150mbps as max bit rate, and don't mention anything about all-I, so other than recording limit I don't see any big advantages over the s5.
On Panasonics tech specs online, they list 150mbps as max bit rate, and don't mention anything about all-I, so other than recording limit I don't see any big advantages over the s5.
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NorBro
Major Contributor
Sorry, not ALL-I. I'm mixing up cameras (talk about too many of them). Leica (presumably using the same sensor) is getting a FW update with something related.
The S1 received some higher resolutions with bit rate bumps and some other stuff, but it's still LongGOP (4:2:0 10-bit).
https://www.newsshooter.com/2021/03...h-ver-2-4-s1-ver-2-0-s5-ver-2-2-bgh1-ver-2-0/
The S1 received some higher resolutions with bit rate bumps and some other stuff, but it's still LongGOP (4:2:0 10-bit).
https://www.newsshooter.com/2021/03...h-ver-2-4-s1-ver-2-0-s5-ver-2-2-bgh1-ver-2-0/
NorBro
Major Contributor
And in real world usage they will be practically identical cameras for video quality, and the main differences are size, quality of EVF (S1 is better), swivel LCD for S5, bigger battery for S1, etc.
But since there's no All-I and recording limits on the newer options, forget it...would be back to square one and the S5 would be a better choice.
But since there's no All-I and recording limits on the newer options, forget it...would be back to square one and the S5 would be a better choice.
junct
Active member
EVF is great for more hands on camera work, but yeah rarely relevant for me. The swivel screen of the s5 is probably more useful than better EVF, since I'm often to the side of camera - but it was also the very thing that broke on my gh4 (the touch screen also died on it about a year ago).
So, if I go Panasonic, instead of second hand sony or blackmagic (which I think might need too much rigging to be a good run and gun camera), then maybe the s5 vs s1 just comes down to which is available at a better price.
I wonder how much real world difference there is from not having all-I compression. I'm guessing the larger sensor, better dynamic range, and better lowlight performance offset that and the lower bit rates vs the gh5.
So, if I go Panasonic, instead of second hand sony or blackmagic (which I think might need too much rigging to be a good run and gun camera), then maybe the s5 vs s1 just comes down to which is available at a better price.
I wonder how much real world difference there is from not having all-I compression. I'm guessing the larger sensor, better dynamic range, and better lowlight performance offset that and the lower bit rates vs the gh5.
junct
Active member
A significant advantage of going panasonic is that it makes my pretty unsellable gh4 still useful as an occasional b-cam.
The screen is dead, unlikely worth getting fixed for it's resale value, and sadly my 12-35mm f2.8 lens has a dent from a drop (no functional issues) also killing its resale value. So, still good tech that's not suitable for my everyday shooting, nor is it probably worth selling - but as a second angle on an interview type set up, it's a useful option with comparable images.
The screen is dead, unlikely worth getting fixed for it's resale value, and sadly my 12-35mm f2.8 lens has a dent from a drop (no functional issues) also killing its resale value. So, still good tech that's not suitable for my everyday shooting, nor is it probably worth selling - but as a second angle on an interview type set up, it's a useful option with comparable images.