C100: Looking for a stabilizer for the C100

Michael Thames

Michael Thames

Carbonite Member
I've come to the realization the next big step in my illustrious film making career is a stabilizer. Been looking at the Ronin, but think it's too damn complicated with all the software, plus the C100 doesn't fit on there without taking off the grip.... Been looking at other less expensive ones such as the Came 7800 but it seems to be discontinued at B&H and it's not a avalible on Amazon so what's up with that? That leaves the Glidecam. However they seem so complicated and the learning curve by all accounts is more than the Ronin which seems to drive like a luxury automobile instead of an MG where you feel every bump in the road.

The Devin Graham signature series looks interesting, I like the simple adjustments to the top plate as well as the quick release built in to it. I've embraced the idea that there will be a learning curve, even though film making is not my daytime job I'm hoping I can learn how to operate this thing on a basic level to get by with what I do which is music videos. I'm not running down the street chasing actors in action films.

So far Ive narrowed in down to the the Glidecam Devin Graham series. Good idea? Is there anything I've overlooked? The Ronin is at the top of my budget, but if it where something incredible then I could perhaps justify it in my mind. Any ideas would be greatly appreciated as I'm about to do a one click buy in the next day or two.
 
I can give you a beginner's perspective- gimbal. I recently looked into advancing my skill set and rented both the Ronin and the GC. The Ronin (after initial set-up) worked better for me from the start. The GC took forever to balance and then required some funky footwork on my part to get the look I wanted.

Sorry, I can't remember which Ronin I rented and can't find the invoice either. I believe it was the heavy-rated unit...
 
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Michael:

You are looking at two different tools that have different uses and applications. The Ronin works great but is a PITA to transport, balance and setup, which may hinder you actually using it as often as you think you might. I have two friends with Ronins and both have remarked to me that they rarely use it because using it means interrupting the flow of the shoot day, there is no quick and easy way to transport it totally pre-built and perfectly balanced, no matter what, they have to at least attach some gear to it and re-balance it, all of which sucks down precious time, no matter what kind of productions you shoot. The Glidecam is a good product, perhaps Eric Coughlin will chime in here as he uses Glidecams and is pretty good with them. To obtain cinematic moves with a Glidecam or any Steadicam-type rig requires training, practice, musicle memory, balance and overall, it is harder on your body. But the payoff is better, more organic moves than a handheld gimbal is capable of. We are starting to see gimbal operators mounting gimbals onto Steadicams now, which blows my mind, but I guess you then the best of both worlds.

Essentially, gimbals are for people who cannot or will not devote the time and effort to learn a Steadicam-like device. The moves are not as smooth, flexible or fluid, especially for long tracking shots. Gimbals definitely have their place and I have seen plenty of great gimbal footage but also a lot of terrible gimbal shots too. Steadicam devices like the Glidecam are also more affected by wind, so if you shoot outdoors a lot, something to take into consideration. I bought a DJI Osmo because I have used real Steadicams before as well as have hired a lot of pro Steadicam ops and the balancing, calibration, fatigue are all typically not a possibility to even entertain on most of my projects, I shoot EPK, BTS on TV shows and features all over the world so having an Osmo for an occasional tracking shot works for me. We shoot almost news style, we have to be ready to grab shots at a moments notice and we cannot raise too much attention to ourselves and we must often squeeze into very tight spaces next to productions cameras, which are typically on full sized dollies. So an Osmo totally works for my needs, which are very occasional and the quality, in daylight or well lit scenarios, is acceptable for how we use it in the cuts for an occasional tracking shot.

Depending on your needs, either a gimbal or a Glidecam might be the best solution, but they are very different tools, the learning curve is different and how you deploy them, especially if you are in a hurry is different. Have you ever shot with either a gimbal or a Glidecam? I would slow down, put the credit card away and try, borrow or sample one of each before buying, you are talking two different worlds there. If you buy one of either and then hate it and immediately sell it, you are wasting at least a few hundred dollars, if not more. Why not get some hands on time, at a dealer, trade show, or borrow from a friend? Buying gear on a wing and a prayer hoping it will work for you is not a smart business move.
 
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puredrifting said:
Michael:

You are looking at two different tools that have different uses and applications. The Ronin works great but is a PITA to transport, balance and setup, which may hinder you actually using it as often as you think you might. I have two friends with Ronins and both have remarked to me that they rarely use it because using it means interrupting the flow of the shoot day, there is no quick and easy way to transport it totally pre-built and perfectly balanced, no matter what, they have to at least attach some gear to it and re-balance it, all of which sucks down precious time, no matter what kind of productions you shoot. The Glidecam is a good product, perhaps Eric Coughlin will chime in here as he uses Glidecams and is pretty good with them. To obtain cinematic moves with a Glidecam or any Steadicam-type rig requires training, practice, musicle memory, balance and overall, it is harder on your body. But the payoff is better, more organic moves than a handheld gimbal is capable of. We are starting to see gimbal operators mounting gimbals onto Steadicams now, which blows my mind, but I guess you then the best of both worlds.

Essentially, gimbals are for people who cannot or will not devote the time and effort to learn a Steadicam-like device. The moves are not as smooth, flexible or fluid, especially for long tracking shots. Gimbals definitely have their place and I have seen plenty of great gimbal footage but also a lot of terrible gimbal shots too. Steadicam devices like the Glidecam are also more affected by wind, so if you shoot outdoors a lot, something to take into consideration. I bought a DJI Osmo because I have used real Steadicams before as well as have hired a lot of pro Steadicam ops and the balancing, calibration, fatigue are all typically not a possibility to even entertain on most of my projects, I shoot EPK, BTS on TV shows and features all over the world so having an Osmo for an occasional tracking shot works for me. We shoot almost news style, we have to be ready to grab shots at a moments notice and we cannot raise too much attention to ourselves and we must often squeeze into very tight spaces next to productions cameras, which are typically on full sized dollies. So an Osmo totally works for my needs, which are very occasional and the quality, in daylight or well lit scenarios, is acceptable for how we use it in the cuts for an occasional tracking shot.

Depending on your needs, either a gimbal or a Glidecam might be the best solution, but they are very different tools, the learning curve is different and how you deploy them, especially if you are in a hurry is different. Have you ever shot with either a gimbal or a Glidecam? I would slow down, put the credit card away and try, borrow or sample one of each before buying, you are talking two different worlds there. If you buy one of either and then hate it and immediately sell it, you are wasting at least a few hundred dollars, if not more. Why not get some hands on time, at a dealer, trade show, or borrow from a friend? Buying gear on a wing and a prayer hoping it will work for you is not a smart business move.
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Thanks for the great comments. Ha! I took a look at the Osmo... Very cool, I might get one for my IPhone.

I dont plan on becoming a profesional steadi-cam operator, and I don't have a lot of time to devote to learning it, although the I accept the learning curve if I decide to go that route. Looks like the Ronin might be the best choice, as from what I see on YouTube once it's set up it is fairly easy to operate.

I do do most of my work in doors. My plans are to make a documentary on the Flamenco guitar scene here in Santa Fe. It has all the right things going for it ...... Good music, pretty ladies, good stories, etc. the most demanding shots with a Ronin or Glidcam would be shots of Flamenco dancers on stage in a live environment in bars and restaurants which means low light settings, so that pretty much eleminates an Osmo with my iPhone.

I know now probably most glidecam operators use older equipment. That's why I was asking about the new Devin Graham Glidecam. Besides learning how to use it (lots of good videos by Stephan Czech) I was apprehensive about balancing it, but it seems the new one is much easier to balance, and the reason I'm considering it. I guess not too many people have this new model Glidecam though.

That said, now I'm leaning towards the Ronin. It takes me an hour and a half to set up to shoot a video with lighting cameras and mic placement. Once the Ronin is set up I can just leave it out on the stand in my house indefinitely...... I understand there is an issue about a stand to set it down on.

I definatly need need something different than just everything on sliders and tripods, looks like a stabilizer is the answer to my creativity Dilemma. So it just a matter of figuring out which one to get.
 
control4userguy said:
I can give you a beginner's perspective- gimbal. I recently looked into advancing my skill set and rented both the Ronin and the GC. The Ronin (after initial set-up) worked better for me from the start. The GC took forever to balance and then required some funky footwork on my part to get the look I wanted.

Sorry, I can't remember which Ronin I rented and can't find the invoice either. I believe it was the heavy-rated unit...
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Did you rent the Devin Graham signature series Glidecam by any chance?
 
Michael Thames said:
Did you rent the Devin Graham signature series Glidecam by any chance?
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No, it was the 4000. I had some weight to deal with so the 4000 was the first thing grabbed. Also, I'm pretty sure now the high capacity Ronin (not the M or MX) I tried. I must confess, I ended-up deciding not to make a purchase or try to offer stabilized shoots to clients. For me, there is really no need for that skill with the bread & butter work I get.
 
Michael Thames said:
Did you rent the Devin Graham signature series Glidecam by any chance?
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Michael, I've recently had the chat about using a glide cam with both Michael and Eric. We came to the conclusion that you would also need to buy the chestplate/arm mount in conjunction with the steadicam and even after that it would still need a lot of training.

Thinking about going with the osmo or even the new dji mobile gimbal for ease of use/price point.

Toby
 
Control4userguy, I don't do it professionally unless one considers that making videos is critical to my business. Any camera equipment I've ever bought has paid for itself over and over in sales. So, adding a new dimension to my videos in the form of a stabilizer I believe will be a good move.
 
I have the DGSS Glidecam and fly an URSA Mini on it. It does take a while to balance the first time, but after that, the graduated markings on both the shaft and the mounting plate enables me to balance the Glidecam in a matter of seconds after I assemble it, which takes about one minute. I know that with my camera/lens/battery combo that as long as I hit my marks putting it together, it'll be almost perfect. I leave the weights on the base when I take it apart, so packing it up really just means unscrewing the base and the top mount, and adjusting the shaft from 17 where I use it to 16, which fits in the case.

Yes the sucker is a beast, especially with my camera, and the total rig weighs about 20 pounds. So I broke down and got the double arm vest from Cowboy Studio ($400) and it's been an incredible lifesaver. I can now shoot all day.

I'll admit, it took me a month of flying a T2i on the HD2000 everyday after work for 30 min a day to really get the hang of it. But once you've learned, it's like riding a bike.
 
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curlyhairedjew said:
Michael, I've recently had the chat about using a glide cam with both Michael and Eric. We came to the conclusion that you would also need to buy the chestplate/arm mount in conjunction with the steadicam and even after that it would still need a lot of training.

Thinking about going with the osmo or even the new dji mobile gimbal for ease of use/price point.

Toby
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Ha! The Glidecam, they make it look so easy in the videos...... I say to my self yea I can do that. For what I need, a lot of night time indoor dark bars and restaurants the Osmo looks like it just won't cut it, but for $300 getting one just for fun is a no brainier. Never used the 4K video on my IPhone yet, from the footage I seen looks like a GH4 with a cheap lens.

Just read the other post about a stabilizer for the C100 where they were suggesting a Letus Helix. I had a look and the price of $3000 was too much, then I saw the aluminum model for $1600....... That is in my price range, looks like that is what I will get, considering it doesn't take the training as a Glidecam. So, unless I stubble upon something else the Helix Jr. Is the answer for me.
 
El Director said:
I have the DGSS Glidecam and fly an URSA Mini on it. It does take a while to balance the first time, but after that, the graduated markings on both the shaft and the mounting plate enables me to balance the Glidecam in a matter of seconds after I assemble it, which takes about one minute. I know that with my camera/lens/battery combo that as long as I hit my marks putting it together, it'll be almost perfect. I leave the weights on the base when I take it apart, so packing it up really just means unscrewing the base and the top mount, and adjusting the shaft from 17 where I use it to 16, which fits in the case.

Yes the sucker is a beast, especially with my camera, and the total rig weighs about 20 pounds. So I broke down and got the double arm vest from Cowboy Studio ($400) and it's been an incredible lifesaver. I can now shoot all day.
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Would you recommend it to an amateur like myself, or go with a Helix Jr. ? I actually bought a used Glidecam, I forget the model on Criags list for $150 and the guy threw in the vest too. The plate was missing some screws and I just never bothered with trying to use it...... It's sitting in my shed.
 
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I agree Michael. C100 with the Ronin M, you are right on the edge as far as weight and size, not a good place to be. Forget the Osmo if low light is on the table. Another consideration would be to buy a smaller HH gimbal like the Zhiyun Crane and a mirrorless camera like the GH4, Sony A6300 or the hot new Fuji XT2. This is the route I am going. My C100 will stay on the tripod or on my shoulder but when I need fluid movement, the Osmo works well enough in good light but for interiors or low light, the Crane seems to be a better solution. Build it, put it on a stand and grab it as needed, then my A camera (my C100 or rental C300s/FS7/etc.) is still set up for regular shooting, often with a bigger lens like the 70-200 2.8 IS II. I find in my work (BTS on TV shows and features), I need to be able to switch back and forth rapidly and have my A camera ready to shoot a stand up interview from sticks or to be shoulder mounted for running around. So I just grab the Osmo once in a while for smooth, fluid sweep around the set or I use it when we are crammed into super tight spots and the big shoulder mounted setup is too much. Most of the shows I shoot on are three camera shows so it can be challenging trying to stay out of talent's eyeline, stay out of the way of the show's operators and boom ops so the Osmo has been a Godsend on shoots like these, I can slip in almost unnoticed in certain circumstances. I feel that a Crane with a small mirrorless would be the same but with better picture quality, low light and FOV choices. It all just depends on your situation and needs. For dancing, I think a gimbal might be easier than a Glidecam personally. A C100 on a Glidecam casts a pretty big footprint compared to mounted to a small gimbal like the Helix JR. Let us know how you like it and how it works with the C100 weight, which lenses you use with it, etc.
 
Michael Thames said:
Control4userguy, I don't do it professionally unless one considers that making videos is critical to my business. Any camera equipment I've ever bought has paid for itself over and over in sales. So, adding a new dimension to my videos in the form of a stabilizer I believe will be a good move.
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Well, that's the difference between us I guess. I wouldn't think I could start payback on a gimbal ($5k investment) until I could prove quality production using it. And with that, I would say it would take about as much time to thoroughly learn and then produce samples of revenue-quality as it would to probably break the thing trying. BTW, I don't do this "professionally" but it is currently my only "business". I would prefer to stay lean and stock only capital I absolutely need to bring in money. It's kind of like the 4K argument, unless it becomes a majority-demanded feature to produce artsy productions, I'll stick with the rigs I currently use.

And, if anyone asked me, I would invest in a Letus Helix if and when the time comes. Anything that allows PID adjustment on the motors, by the user, I'm for.
 
puredrifting said:
I agree Michael. C100 with the Ronin M, you are right on the edge as far as weight and size, not a good place to be. Forget the Osmo if low light is on the table. Another consideration would be to buy a smaller HH gimbal like the Zhiyun Crane and a mirrorless camera like the GH4, Sony A6300 or the hot new Fuji XT2. This is the route I am going. My C100 will stay on the tripod or on my shoulder but when I need fluid movement, the Osmo works well enough in good light but for interiors or low light, the Crane seems to be a better solution. Build it, put it on a stand and grab it as needed, then my A camera (my C100 or rental C300s/FS7/etc.) is still set up for regular shooting, often with a bigger lens like the 70-200 2.8 IS II. I find in my work (BTS on TV shows and features), I need to be able to switch back and forth rapidly and have my A camera ready to shoot a stand up interview from sticks or to be shoulder mounted for running around. So I just grab the Osmo once in a while for smooth, fluid sweep around the set or I use it when we are crammed into super tight spots and the big shoulder mounted setup is too much. Most of the shows I shoot on are three camera shows so it can be challenging trying to stay out of talent's eyeline, stay out of the way of the show's operators and boom ops so the Osmo has been a Godsend on shoots like these, I can slip in almost unnoticed in certain circumstances. I feel that a Crane with a small mirrorless would be the same but with better picture quality, low light and FOV choices. It all just depends on your situation and needs. For dancing, I think a gimbal might be easier than a Glidecam personally. A C100 on a Glidecam casts a pretty big footprint compared to mounted to a small gimbal like the Helix JR. Let us know how you like it and how it works with the C100 weight, which lenses you use with it, etc.
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Ha! I've been obsessing over this the last few days, I always enjoy obsessing over video gear. Checked out the Zhiyun Crane as well as the Ikan Beholder. They are certainly interesting and appealing...... Ikan has a new one out that will take up to 5 lbs. I called and spoke to them this morning to see if this new model would support a C100..... he said he would run downstairs put a c100 on it and call me back...... he never called back so I take that as a big NO!

I've narrowed it down to a Letus Helix Jr. with the aluminum frame. The reasons follow..... I would like to use the Blade with it and I really like how the monitor attaches to the C100 and stays with the C100 as you are tilting it etc. I'm looking to get another C100 so I won't have to go through the color correction with the C100 and the 5D3, also the C100 has the auto focus which seems very helpful with using a gimbal. I feel limited with the stick type gimbals if I want to be more versatile as to what cameras I end up using, and with the stick gimbals a monitor seems out of the question.

So I'll order the Helix tomorrow if I don't have a revelation tonight about something else.... ha!

I do have a question about lenses for the C100 using a gimbal. I have the 24-105 the 70 -200 f4 IS, and a 50mm 1.8. Looks like Ill need something more. I looked at the 24 mm pancake but not sure it will work on the C100. Any recommendations? Of course not the super expensive stuff.
 
Although you are not asking me, If it were me, I'd reach for a 28mm or a 35mm, anything that would make my mistakes less obvious. 70-200 on a JR.? Well, they say it can handle 7+ lbs and I guess you could get the pro plate for it...
 
control4userguy said:
Well, that's the difference between us I guess. I wouldn't think I could start payback on a gimbal ($5k investment) until I could prove quality production using it. And with that, I would say it would take about as much time to thoroughly learn and then produce samples of revenue-quality as it would to probably break the thing trying. BTW, I don't do this "professionally" but it is currently my only "business". I would prefer to stay lean and stock only capital I absolutely need to bring in money. It's kind of like the 4K argument, unless it becomes a majority-demanded feature to produce artsy productions, I'll stick with the rigs I currently use.

And, if anyone asked me, I would invest in a Letus Helix if and when the time comes. Anything that allows PID adjustment on the motors, by the user, I'm for.
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The investment for me is the satisfaction of learning and creating video, I wouldn't even know where to begin to try and make money with video production. I already have a pretty creative day job, so the video stuff fits in line with that.

I have collected some good gear over the years. A Second Shooter, Shark slider, the Aputure lighting kit, a pair of Scheops mics, with a portable ULN-2 pre-amp, 5D3, and a C100..... and now a Helix Jr.

Damn, I could probably go into business but like I said I wouldn't know where to begin. Having this equipment and a certain desire to use it more than a few times a year, I've come up with the idea of making a documentary about the Flamenco guitar scene here in Santa Fe, NM..... that's why I have the need for a Helix. I lack a creative instinct for ideas for stories and putting together a story line so this Doc idea with be an excersize or an etude for me..... good music, lovely sexy dancers, a lot of personal drama..... not too much I got to come up with as far as a story line..... and all these people are my friends, so easy access.
 
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control4userguy said:
Although you are not asking me, If it were me, I'd reach for a 28mm or a 35mm, anything that would make my mistakes less obvious. 70-200 on a JR.? Well, they say it can handle 7+ lbs and I guess you could get the pro plate for it...
Click to expand...

They will be mostly indoor shoots of dancers and guitarists on a small stage. I forget the crop factor on the C100, but my 50mm will end up what, an 85mm? I'm thinking an 11 to 16, but I'm not doing skateboarders outside and would like a fairly intimate framing.

Hum..... a 70-200 on a gimbal sounds scary, don't they just intensify any shake or movement?
 
control4userguy said:
Although you are not asking me, If it were me, I'd reach for a 28mm or a 35mm, anything that would make my mistakes less obvious. 70-200 on a JR.? Well, they say it can handle 7+ lbs and I guess you could get the pro plate for it...
Click to expand...

BTW, does that 24mm 2.8 pancake work on a C100?
 
You could get a CAME-TV stabilizer and vest for $890, or a second hand Laing P-04s and vest for around $600. I like the idea of traditional steadycams because, it's one less thing to power. Glidecam's DGSS is their best designed stabilizer, but I'm not sure if it warrants the price difference over CAME-TV and Laing stabilizers.

As far as lenses go, if you don't need AF, get a used Nikon 24mm prime.
 
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