C300: Lets steal a feature from RED

M

Mark Smith

Veteran
I shot a bit recently with a Red Scarlet. NIce camera for some situations. I had the better hand grip with the camera, the one that has a wheel under the index finger like canon and a few buttions with menu assignable functions. The camera had the EOS Mount and I used some of my Canon lenses. THe wheel on the grip could be mapped to focus which was pretty awesome for what I was shooting, so now I’m thinking that canon should steal this feature from Red and incorporate it into their cameras. I love DPAF and use it all the time in controllable ways. If canon could map the control wheel on their hand grip to control focus I know this would be an added feature people would love. Currently the only 2 option for grip wheel are iris or ISO/Gain. Why not add a third fuction- focus?
 
Yeah, that would be pretty cool. Even better if camera makers provided software SDKs like phones so we can fix things or add features as needed. Magic Lantern really transformed the 5D Mark III (many more features beyond raw).
 
Canon actually has a good lens control protocol in their SDK. The problem is they never put it into their cameras...
 
My point - lets start a movement and get it in the cameras. Lens focus controlled by hand grip wheel worked great on the red scarlet, so why not on the cinema eos cameras?
I still love and use DPAF judiciously, having another option can't hurt like the roller wheel can't hurt.
 
RED's DSMC2 Side Handle is one of the most beautiful things they've ever created.

Even just pressing the record button is an experience, ha.
 
Mark Smith said:
My point - lets start a movement and get it in the cameras. Lens focus controlled by hand grip wheel worked great on the red scarlet, so why not on the cinema eos cameras?
I still love and use DPAF judiciously, having another option can't hurt like the roller wheel can't hurt.
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Ken Rowe is the man. I'll shoot him an email with a link to this thread...
 
NorBro said:
RED's DSMC2 Side Handle is one of the most beautiful things they've ever created.

Even just pressing the record button is an experience, ha.
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The C300 II's record buttons are a terrible design: very hard to tell when triggered- high spring force and must fully press (which can jiggle the camera, requiring a second or two to become stable) and no haptic response: must check for recording light etc.

Based on common online forum responses regarding Canon firmware updates: sounds like the (single) firmware developer is locked away in an underground volcano island only accessible by submarine with no other communication with the outside world. After years of writing everything in custom assembly language (which no one else can understand), he's not very keen on making any changes, and if the submarine delivers his favorite supplies of Hot pockets and Jolt Cola, he'll begrudgingly (slowly) make changes in between watching Rick & Morty & Lost reruns (he thinks Lost is a documentary because they have him pressing a button too).

In all seriousness, today's cameras are computers, and more frequent firmware updates to improve the life/usability of the camera shows goodwill toward loyal customers which can result in improved/continued future sales. Panasonic listened with the GH5/s and it's doing great. Sony A7 III is sold out (tons of issues fixed and super low price). At the high end Sony really upped their game with color science and pure image quality with the VENICE. Canon still has the edge with DPAF (though the A7 III's AF is getting pretty close. Will the A7S III match or pass DPAF?). Sony's VENICE color science has trickled down the the FS5 II- I'm not sure if Canon has the advantage for skintones anymore (at that price point). Thus it would be in Canon's best interest to provide firmware updates which fix issues with existing cameras. Another suggestion: leave the LUT settings enabled, even when switching between non-log CPs (will be visually turned off with non-log settings), so as soon as a log setting is re-enabled, the LUT is back. Also more intelligent monitoring options based on what is currently plugged into the camera. e.g. if no HDMI/SDI plugged in, automatically enable viewfinder & LCD. If HDMI/SDI plugged in, have option to disable (priority) LCD/VF automatically. Adding 3D LUT support (both for monitoring and baking in) would be super helpful.
 
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RED designs some very nice hardware...some of the functionality and ergonomics of the pieces are amazing. I wonder what you would think about the handle's trigger/response.

As far as firmware updates, it's going to become the norm (if it isn't already) as many cameras these days seem to be half done when released because of the brutal competition to get it out ASAP. RED and Blackmagic (no experience with ARRI) have been the masters of firmware updates transforming their cameras over the years (and of course fixing a lot).

Canon does seem to be the worst while Sony and Panasonic seem to listen and do work as well.
 
Lol...that would be ideal but then they would need to make a new handle, which may be the point.
 
rob norton said:
Other than adding focus, why not have a handgrip that controls even more?
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I'm happy with the 4 programmable functions on the canon handle. I think the red DSCM2 handle had too many buttons and then it starts to get like a game controller. I'm not a gamer so slightly biased against the game controller aesthetic...
 
Mark Smith said:
I'm happy with the 4 programmable functions on the canon handle. I think the red DSCM2 handle had too many buttons and then it starts to get like a game controller. I'm not a gamer so slightly biased against the game controller aesthetic...
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Don't like buttons? Get rid of all the buttons and use EMG, GSR, skin sensors etc. + AI to control the system :)
 
This is probably old news but I thought I'd mention anyway if it helps anyone else:

I didn't realise you can control the basics - WB, iris, ISO, shutter with one hand. If you assign the button on the handgrip to set WB, you can easily cycle between WB, ISO, shutter etc. - I feel like an idiot!

This frees up the ISO/shutter buttons, which I'll use for all the different AF options or some other specific function.

Anyway it'd be good if you could assign anything to the wheel on the handgrip. For example, I'd use it to make audio adjustments instead of the wheels on the back. Like the OP wanting focus, I'm sure there are endless specific uses for it but my point is we should have the choice.
 
You guys are getting all abstract here, I'd just be happy if Canon fixed the the default to 60p when switching media bug on the C200. No, it's not a feature, that's a bug or bad engineering. If you are shooting 24p to CFast cards and want to switch to shooting on your SD cards, you shouldn't have to remember to go in and switch the camera back to 24p each and every time. When running and gunning, I have almost unintentionally shot interviews at 60p, which would hose me if all of the rest of my interviews were shot at 24p. It's the simple things.

FWIW, I find when crading or shoulder mounted on my Frankenrig, I think the grip wheel focusing would be horrible, I have to adjust my hand angle within the grip all of the time just to ride iris which requires a lot less spinng of the little wheel than manual focus would. Maybe it's just me but especially when shooting cradled, I am going from being on my knees over the gunnel of a boat to tucked into my chest to holding the camera high overhead, all in less than :60, there is just no way that trying to spin that wheel in all of those different positions would work. But to each their own.
 
puredrifting said:
You guys are getting all abstract here, I'd just be happy if Canon fixed the the default to 60p when switching media bug on the C200. No, it's not a feature, that's a bug or bad engineering. If you are shooting 24p to CFast cards and want to switch to shooting on your SD cards, you shouldn't have to remember to go in and switch the camera back to 24p each and every time. When running and gunning, I have almost unintentionally shot interviews at 60p, which would hose me if all of the rest of my interviews were shot at 24p. It's the simple things.

FWIW, I find when crading or shoulder mounted on my Frankenrig, I think the grip wheel focusing would be horrible, I have to adjust my hand angle within the grip all of the time just to ride iris which requires a lot less spinng of the little wheel than manual focus would. Maybe it's just me but especially when shooting cradled, I am going from being on my knees over the gunnel of a boat to tucked into my chest to holding the camera high overhead, all in less than :60, there is just no way that trying to spin that wheel in all of those different positions would work. But to each their own.
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I don't quite see the hand grip wheel changing focus being that handy either, if the throw was anything but really short you'd need to spin the wheel too many times? But I can understand wanting flexibility for certain situations so maybe the OP is thinking of a more specific application..
 
It was my red raven shoot that awakened me to the possibility of the thumb wheel focus control. I liked it enough to think that it would be a great addition to the Canon DPAF system . Would I use it all the time, no but I could see places where it would be valuable. With a little bit od software magic they could linearize the focus movement of the lens and give a couple of different wheel speeds , slow, med , fast and I think people would like it.
Canon definitely has to step up their camera software- firmware game a LOT. Besides quashing the bugs that puredrifting points out, there is no doubt quite a bit of functionality that could be implemented that is not getting done presently.
 
The moment you put the canons onto a shoulder rig they become cumbersome to use. I would pay 650$ (you know what I mean...) for an exchangeable "single-operator-grip" that would let me control EVERYTHING in the menu without taking my hands of the grip...
 
Spartacus said:
The moment you put the canons onto a shoulder rig they become cumbersome to use.
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Agreed. I have a full Zacuto/Wooden/Tilta shoulder setup for my C200 and for my current film, I am shooting less and less shoulder mounted and more cradled because the C series cameras, other than the C700, are not laid out ergonomically for the shoulder. My C200 exhaust is blowing hot air into my ear, the quick access button menu is further back up near my neck where I can never find it by touch. I was really hoping the C200 was going to be a miniaturized C700 form factor, maybe someday...
 
I bounce betweeen my zacuto rig and the minimal hand held rig. I started out and shot for years with my C300 hand held- zero rig. A little more than a year ago I got into the zacuto rig and prefer it for some situations. I like having both options. My first extensive shoot with the C 300 was on a ship in the south pacific for a month so shooting without any rig was such an advantage because of the tight spaces that I just adopted that as my style. The form factor of the camera makes proper rig design difficult, building a rig isn’t hard, getting it the way you want it in terms of simplicity, weight distribution, center of gravity, etc is hard. And then there are a few buttoms that are hard to reach or just in the wrong places no matter what.
 
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