Komodo is Officially On Sale

[Tamerlin]

After using RED's vs other brands for over a decade, I tend to think RED is not putting much into their products. Most everything they implement typically already exists and they repurpose it...

Such as a global shutter sensor with nearly the same dynamic range as Helium, but with autofocus support?

Right, try again.

However, I tend to think they are "spec-ing" their sensors, rather than designing. Every other cinema sensor, from the F55 on up is tuned at a whole other level. RED sensors are obviously top tier stuff, but they are kind of just plopped on the table like a turkey without any dish to hold it.

Red obviously doesn't have its own semiconductor fab, but neither do Black Magic or Sigma. I'm quite certain that Red started out using off the shelf parts like Black Magic did, and graduated to designing its own... also just like Black Magic did. The only differences are timing and the target price points.

Their implementations are sloppy, and they utilize their buyer base to do some of the beta testing, and they still release sloppy simple cameras. And they brilliantly offloaded millions of man-hours of customer support to their online forum. I get redirected to the forum by their customer support and staff.

So does Black Magic. Actually, Sony does also -- how do you think Sony got Claudio Miranda to test the camera during development? The only difference really is that Red does its betas publicly, rather than privately. Both have benefits, and neither is perfect.

I'd build my own camera with similar results, but don't think I could afford a one off, nor do I want to spend ten years of my life doing so, and RED might sue me for having internal RAW in the end anyways

That statement makes you a Duning-Kruger poster child.

[qutoe]
THAT ALL SAID... you do get your money's worth in today's market when you buy a RED. If only because there is no competition in that space. For example, you pay through the nose for a DSMC2 camera, but you get a sensor that is 2+yrs ahead of the competition in image quality and is half the price of Arri. Sony didn't even have a truly competitive camera until the Venice, so RED enjoyed a near 10yr gap all to themselves.
[/quote]

Yet earlier in the same post you claimed that Red was just using off-the-shelf sensors... you can't have it both ways.

RED is improving over time. They are getting more sophisticated..... but seeing the Komodo, I am on the fence still about their future capabilities. But I fear they may just be a little too sloppily managed for a tech company. I had hoped with Jarred running things their camera ergonomics might at least improve, but seeing the things coming out of GDU, it is unclear that will actually happen.

The ergonomics have definitely improved, as demonstrated by the Ranger design. I haven't had a chance to use a Komodo in person yet, so I can't comment on that at the moment, but it's clearly a reflection of user requests, and Red did do a fair bit of private alpha testing before launching the open beta.

One of the factors that I think Red underestimated is a side effect of opening up the camera more than before for 3rd party accessories, including media and batteries. I don't think Red has been able to keep up with all of those variables. Most of the problems that the Komodo owners have been running into aren't consistent, but there are some batteries for example that are proving to be problematic, while others are flawless. A large fraction of the problems that Black Magic ran into with pretty much every one of its cameras has been similar, so it's not surprising that Red's not keeping up with all of the third party problems, like batteries that don't get the protocols right, or even have chips with which to implement those protocols, knockoffs that don't correctly report voltage, recording media that claim certain performance levels but can only maintain them for brief periods...

 

[Tamerlin]

Despite being over sold, RED is still promoting the Komodo on instagram. I got an advert on my scrolling feed from Red.com promoting the Komodo as 'now on sale'. Either that is a poorly delayed ad, or Komodo's are not actually selling as well as they hoped. Would even assume their early bird custom colour batch didn't do as well as they had hoped.

The custom color models were betas that were sold at higher prices than the production models, and only through Red, and Red still put caps on the number of orders they accepted, since those models weren't in volume production.

I'd like to be wrong, as I'd like to see a competitor like RED stay in the game, but I'm just not seeing it.

Then you must be blind, since the direct back order queue has been getting longer and so have the reseller back order queues, in spite of having two manufacturing pipelines producing cameras instead of Red's usual single manufacturing pipeline.

That it's selling well is pretty obvious.

 

[Guest]

S
That statement makes you a Duning-Kruger poster child.

Haha, very likely, but aren't we all in our own ways. My disclaimers were not being able to afford it, and not wanting to spend a good portion of my life developing it or paying someone else to develop it, etc. These days, it is far more tangible than you might think. But at the one-off level it is just way too expensive and time consuming. If Jim Jannard and Jarred Land can do it, why can't I? Oh right, I lack the money.

 

[DLD]

Gross margins over manufacturing costs is not a useful metric for determining relative product value. It doesn’t take into account the substantial engineering and development costs that precede production. Those costs are proportionally much higher as a percentage of sale price for a small specialized company like Red especially since they do design and develop their own sensors and custom processing chips.

An item's market value has nothing to do with its costs - a general economic principle - be they production or development. There have been plenty of big name product failures - from Edsel to the New Coke to, lower in this forum, Quibi.

As to Red, their main profit producing models still have a relative protection from Sony (no 8K cameras, a crippled 6K camera, + Venice) and Canon (no 8K cameras). Once full pro sub-$20K 8K units hit the market, there won't be a spec gap anymore. And the Japanese will have a higher QC rep on top of that. Red can, naturally, respond much like the BMD with a 10K-12K series but the market will be stuck on 8K for a long time. More importantly, the sweet spot will be drifting lower and lower.

 

[Guest]

Yet earlier in the same post you claimed that Red was just using off-the-shelf sensors... you can't have it both ways.

You can. If RED is the only company that is putting together these "off the shelf parts" (which is an exaggeration, in part), and doing it at that price range, then YES! RED is totally worth the money. However, in a competitive space, or when the low hanging fruit is all snatched up, things gets more difficult, engineering gets more difficult, and customers may not value certain features at those prices anymore. For example, if a $4000 camera has 13stops usable DR, and RED comes out with a 14stops DR camera, And Arri and Sony make 15 or 16 stop cameras.... then were would that leave the $30-$80K DSmC2 style model? Either they lower their prices or they greatly level up. The question is if RED has the technical prowess and brand power to go forward. I am seeing them wane. I find myself having to justify the cameras to most people around town, though outsiders seem to still think they make cool cameras, and that is a part of the appeal of a RED. I don't know that ERD will fail, I am just saying, after 3+ iterations, they still aren't all that put together, and are rather sloppy for their class.

 

[Guest]

The ergonomics have definitely improved, as demonstrated by the Ranger design.

I own a Red Ranger, so let's just agree to disagree. Besides "improved" is relative. It is much improved and a generally nice build, but there are little sloppy gripes that surprise me. Not unusable. But certainly not in standing with some of the other designs in this cine class.

Sony did F35, F65 and then got the F55 and Venice right. Canon Did C300, mk2, and then got the MK3 right. Arri did the D20, D21, and then got the Alexa right. They did the Mini, and then got the Mini LF right. But RED went from camera to camera, each getting better parts but still having a few odd ball mistakes, or just never really completing their products. Red One, Epic, DSMC2, and Ranger, still not right yet.... pretty good, and they are still cheaper than Arri, so I really don't mind, but still have some quirks that are maybe more like black magic... except at $20K-$80K+ a pop.

This is less a complaint, and more a concern for the brand. I sincerely want RED to stay in the game, but the days of buying the better sensor and having a beefy codec are no longer exclusive to the high end.

The DSMC3 should still do well, in particular if they finally get Alexa DR at a minimum, but after that, who knows. Then in 10years, maybe none of this will matter. But I'll always feel bad that you wrote:

That statement makes you a Duning-Kruger poster child.

 

[Guest]

Actually, Sony does also -- how do you think Sony got Claudio Miranda to test the camera during development? The only difference really is that Red does its betas publicly, rather than privately. Both have benefits, and neither is perfect.

Sony is not a hero in any sense. But the Difference between RED and Canikony or Arri, is RED Beta tests on all of their customers. One would have hoped with 4 or more camera iterations and 12+ years in the business they would have had more dialed in ergonomics and designs. though there never was much competition in that camera category.

 

[Guest]

The custom color models were betas that were sold at higher prices than the production models, and only through Red, and Red still put caps on the number of orders they accepted, since those models weren't in volume production.



Then you must be blind, since the direct back order queue has been getting longer and so have the reseller back order queues, in spite of having two manufacturing pipelines producing cameras instead of Red's usual single manufacturing pipeline.

That it's selling well is pretty obvious.

Red always says they are sold out, over sold, limited pricing... It's part of their hype. They obviously do well, but they are to cameras what Lacie was to hard drives. They do good business, but how long will people keep on believing.... with 7billion people and a continually growing video industry, perhaps indefinitely. But with most industry professionals I encounter, they either dislike RED, or they like RED and have a chip on their shoulder because they have to defend their choice all the time.

 

[Guest]

Anyways, not trying to just arbitrarily complain about RED, but more so challenge them. If this were some super public forum, I might not say anything, but anyone on here is pretty much an insider, or really serious about looking into nerdy camera stuff. I'm not worried some producer is going to read this and never rent a RED. If you have a good team shooting, a RED, Black Magic, a C200, or anything else can do the trick.

 

[Tamerlin]

Haha, very likely, but aren't we all in our own ways. My disclaimers were not being able to afford it, and not wanting to spend a good portion of my life developing it or paying someone else to develop it, etc. These days, it is far more tangible than you might think. But at the one-off level it is just way too expensive and time consuming. If Jim Jannard and Jarred Land can do it, why can't I? Oh right, I lack the money.

How about the engineering skills required to develop a custom sensor and the I/O interface between that and the camera, the programming skills to write the software that turns that sensor data into raw data ready for encoding, the mathematics knowledge to write the software that implements the color science, the knowledge of how to calibrate the sensor... and so on.

Red didn't magically acquire those skills either; there's a reason that it took on the order of ten years to mature its color science to the level of IPP2.

Black Magic "cheated" by buying that expertise in the form of DaVinci Systems... obviously a strategic investment that has paid off in spades.

 

[Guest]

How about the engineering skills required to develop a custom sensor and the I/O interface between that and the camera, the programming skills to write the software that turns that sensor data into raw data ready for encoding, the mathematics knowledge to write the software that implements the color science, the knowledge of how to calibrate the sensor... and so on.

Red didn't magically acquire those skills either; there's a reason that it took on the order of ten years to mature its color science to the level of IPP2.

Black Magic "cheated" by buying that expertise in the form of DaVinci Systems... obviously a strategic investment that has paid off in spades.

EDIT - You replied further. Although, you still tripled down with this misinterpretation. So, I won't continue arguing with you about that beyond this post.



This is the one thing you are going to double down on? I said I'd build one if I could afford it, I didn't say I have the engineering abilities. How do you think Jim Jannard built the Red One?

Where I think I might do better than RED, is that I'd likely use more classical proven ergonomic design inspiration from existing cameras, rather than tactical weapons.

 

[Tamerlin]

Red always says they are sold out, over sold, limited pricing... It's part of their hype. They obviously do well, but they are to cameras what Lacie was to hard drives. They do good business, but how long will people keep on believing.... with 7billion people and a continually growing video industry, perhaps indefinitely. But with most industry professionals I encounter, they either dislike RED, or they like RED and have a chip on their shoulder because they have to defend their choice all the time.

People will keep believing as long as they're happy with their cameras. Right now, that's most Red camera owners, NASA, and the list goes on.

I own a Red Ranger, so let's just agree to disagree. Besides "improved" is relative. It is much improved and a generally nice build, but there are little sloppy gripes that surprise me. Not unusable. But certainly not in standing with some of the other designs in this cine class.

Don't tell me that you think the ergonomics of the DSMC2 box with all software controls are better than the ergonomics of the Ranger with physical controls on it?

This is less a complaint, and more a concern for the brand. I sincerely want RED to stay in the game, but the days of buying the better sensor and having a beefy codec are no longer exclusive to the high end.

Where do you think they're buying a better sensor from? I know Red started out working with off the shelf sensors, but that's hardly unusual for camera manufacturers, except ones that are part of huge conglomerates with in-house semiconductor manufacturing in place already.

The DSMC3 should still do well, in particular if they finally get Alexa DR at a minimum, but after that, who knows. Then in 10years, maybe none of this will matter. But I'll always feel bad that you wrote:

I don't pretend to be a camera designer, but I do come from a background in physics and technology. I know what I don't know... but it also makes it blindingly obvious when someone else pretends expertise without even that tiny bit of knowledge.

Sony is not a hero in any sense. But the Difference between RED and Canikony or Arri, is RED Beta tests on all of their customers. One would have hoped with 4 or more camera iterations and 12+ years in the business they would have had more dialed in ergonomics and designs. though there never was much competition in that camera category.

Red's open betas are voluntary, and informed. It's not like Microsoft or Facebook who test things (in their defense, Microsoft doesn't do this any more, which I know from personal experience from being part of now eight Microsoft development teams) by shipping them. When Red offered the pre-release Komodos, the messaging that the camera's firmware was in beta was quite clear. Pretending that they're using all of their customers for beta testing is simply false.

Obviously though, that beta testing isn't perfect... but neither is anyone else's.

Anyways, not trying to just arbitrarily complain about RED, but more so challenge them. If this were some super public forum, I might not say anything, but anyone on here is pretty much an insider, or really serious about looking into nerdy camera stuff. I'm not worried some producer is going to read this and never rent a RED. If you have a good team shooting, a RED, Black Magic, a C200, or anything else can do the trick.

You'd get a lot farther in that if you weren't writing like a propagandist. You actually sound more like some of the BMD fanboys who are jealous of Red because it has so much more cachet than Black Magic does.

I've always found it ironic that the most ardent fanboys make their Red envy blindingly obvious because rather than figuring out why they can't get good enough images out of their Black Magic cameras, they complain and bash Red.

It's obvious that they're the limiting factor (duh), but they'd rather bash Red than learn their craft.

 

[Guest]

Don't tell me that you think the ergonomics of the DSMC2 box with all software controls are better than the ergonomics of the Ranger with physical controls on it?

"Improvement" is a relative term. Improved, yes, but still a few things to iron out. And for the most part, it is tied to the DSMC2 platform. So a fully kitted out DSMC2 is not far off.

 

[Guest]

Looks like he is gone, I can go back to bashing RED, muhahaha!


Up to this point RED has heavily relied on good sensors and hefty codecs. Now in 2020, there are so many options for 12+ stop DR 4K+ 10bit + cameras, that unless RED reeeeeeally makes CMOS run at a usable 15stops, what clear advantages will they have? Their Auto Focus isn't even out of Beta yet for the Komodo, and if ProRes is tripping errors, holy fudge. I have no doubts that RED will be relevant for the DSMC3 era, but unknown beyond that. Canikony has shown us this past 12years that they really love waiting till the last second and are willing to milk every upgrade opportunity, but that also, even on that crazy drawn out time line they have all but caught up and in someways surpassed RED.

 

[combatentropy]

I'd likely use more classical proven ergonomic design inspiration from existing cameras, rather than tactical weapons.

Agreed.

Red always has had a certain machismo. Like, I'm supposed to even type their name in all caps. That machismo perhaps helped them burst through the brick wall laid by the sleeping giants, and I credit Red for helping wake them up.

But I have always hated their design and style. The box camera is usable only for Hollywood sets with time on their hands. "We give you a box, and you build it out how you please." I think it's a cop-out. "Thanks for the frankenrig, and the $30,000 of accessories I had to buy in addition to the $30,000 camera."

Do the hard work of making an opinionated design. In a certain sense, the groundwork has been laid, and I still think there are really only 3 viable body styles: the DSLR, the handicam, and the shouldercam. If you make a shouldercam, you might as well stick to the Betacam layout infused into so many people's muscle memory. Well, either that or the film camera layout like I guess Arri did with the Alexa. If you make a DSLR or handicam, it takes a bit more work to figure out how to arrange the buttons in the most useful way, so that you're not digging through menus. I think it can be done, especially if you stop trying to shove a post-production suite into the camera. Just shoot raw or some visually lossless, indestructible codec. We have the cards for it now, even in SD.

They say the last 20% takes 80% of the time, and I think that's what they're running into. Splashy specs grab headlines, but for a camera that you own and use day in, day out, I would rather not have Tigger make it but Eeyore.

 

[Run&Gun]

Agreed.

Red always has had a certain machismo. Like, I'm supposed to even type their name in all caps. That machismo perhaps helped them burst through the brick wall laid by the sleeping giants, and I credit Red for helping wake them up.

But I have always hated their design and style. The box camera is usable only for Hollywood sets with time on their hands. "We give you a box, and you build it out how you please." I think it's a cop-out. "Thanks for the frankenrig, and the $30,000 of accessories I had to buy in addition to the $30,000 camera."

Do the hard work of making an opinionated design. In a certain sense, the groundwork has been laid, and I still think there are really only 3 viable body styles: the DSLR, the handicam, and the shouldercam. If you make a shouldercam, you might as well stick to the Betacam layout infused into so many people's muscle memory. Well, either that or the film camera layout like I guess Arri did with the Alexa. If you make a DSLR or handicam, it takes a bit more work to figure out how to arrange the buttons in the most useful way, so that you're not digging through menus. I think it can be done, especially if you stop trying to shove a post-production suite into the camera. Just shoot raw or some visually lossless, indestructible codec. We have the cards for it now, even in SD.

They say the last 20% takes 80% of the time, and I think that's what they're running into. Splashy specs grab headlines, but for a camera that you own and use day in, day out, I would rather not have Tigger make it but Eeyore.

I'd say an ALEXA (body) is closer to a "Betacam" (body) than most 35 film camera bodies.

 

[DLD]

IMO, if Red (RED?) goes, it can be very quickly, very Titanic like. One day, you'd wake up and Red User is locked down. And not because of the corona virus.

The industry is better with them around but they're no longer as needed as they were a decade ago. The owners made some decent dough over the company run. They can just as easily ride off into the sunset.

 

[ahalpert]

I'd say an ALEXA (body) is closer to a "Betacam" (body) than most 35 film camera bodies.

FWIW the upcoming generation has never used a Betacam, so no muscle memory there. Which is not to say it wasn't a great design. I wouldn't know because I never used one.

I would prefer an Eeyore design as well.

I dont think DSLR design is truly "viable." I rarely if ever shoot with it holding the grip and looking through the EVF. I guess some do? I feel the same way towards it as I do towards a box, except there's less box. It's a photo camera design

 

[DLD]

The DSLR vs. the Betacam shape battle is the ongoing fight between the pro and the consumer divisions of the manufacturers. Hypoparenthetically, none of the A7S or the GH-4/5 designs had to look like a DSLR. Nor did they have to be as physically small. Nonetheless ...

 

[combatentropy]

I rarely if ever shoot with it holding the grip and looking through the EVF.

Nah, I meant one with a flip-out screen, serves as a second handle.