Until there's footage, there's not much to say.
Kick in the nuts for HMC40?
- Thread starter Alejo_NIN
- Start date
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
David, footage has been out over a week.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Why does it need three? The 5D has 1. RED has one. Sony F35 has one.
Just saying, talking hardware without seeing images, while a regular pastime, isn't much to go on. If there's footage out there, then cool. But you really can't make anything like purchasing decisions a priori.
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
Completely agree. Took me nearly a year to decide to buy a DSLR after I had seen my first images. And over 7 months since I used one on a film shoot. The various limitations aren't so much a bother to my work, but people really need to understand we are in the infancy of this movement. I mean the 5DMk2 is less than 2 years old, the 7D came out in NOVEMBER, and the 550D in March.
The pace at which we are moving toward large sensor, affordable cameras is unlike anything we've seen before, and still people want to bash and complain. The manufacturers are trying to get product out there that they can sell without completely tanking current models.
I am sure that by Christmas, we'll have some shiny new cameras available for the cinema crowd. But everyone want's to jump to the main course without taking time to even appreciate the appetizer.
BobDiaz
The Professor
Here's some more information the Sony Camera:
The one thing that stands out that this is a very different video camera to the HMC40, so we are talking about two very different markets and usages here. Granted if you are shooting a "film" with shallow DOF, the Sony has the advantage, but the article says nothing about how much control over the settings the user has. Given that it's for the consumer market, I'll bet it sure isn't as much as the HMC40.
I don't own any stock in Panasonic or Sony, so it really doesn't not matter to me what camera someone buys; however, I do own stock in Ford, so buy a Ford!!! :laugh:
Bob Diaz
Sony Unveils Interchangeable-Lens Camcorder
By Greg Tarr -- TWICE, 7/14/2010
San Diego - Sony formally introduced what it is calling the industry's first consumer-focused interchangeable-lens camcorder.
The unit adds the flexibility of a d-SLR to a camera form factor that Sony believes to be more practical for shooting video.
The Handycam NEX-VG10 (shipping in September at a $1,999 suggested retail as a kit including an 18-200mm f/3.5 lens) brings the ability to change lenses for a variety of creative shooting techniques including telephoto extensions. The camcorder was designed to use Sony's new e-mount lenses originally developed for Sony's new NEX mirrorless interchangeable-lens camera series.
Three e-mount lenses are available, including a new 18-200mm f/3.5 lens ($799 suggested retail) that will be made available as part of a kit with the VG10. Existing e-mount lenses include an 18-55mm ($299) lens and 16mm fixed-focus lens ($249). Sony is also offering an optional e-mount adapter for Alpha-mount lenses ($200), an ultra-wide converter ($129) and a fisheye converter ($149).
When using Sony's Alpha-series Carl Zeiss lenses via an adapter on the camcorder, the autofocus system will not function, requiring manual focusing, only.
The camcorder also adds a large-format 14.2 megapixel Exmor APS-C HD CMOS image sensor (the same as used on the recently introduced NEX mirrorless interchangeable-lens still cameras) coupled with a BIONZ processor for higher-resolution still and video images. It was also engineered for high-quality audio recording and offers a compact, ergonomic body design optimized for video shooting.
The APS-C sized Exmor CMOS sensor was designed to offer greater shallow depth of field control, and larger pixel size for better image quality.
The camcorder also includes optical SteadyShot with Active Mode to reduce image wobble in handheld shooting.
Sony said it significantly reduced the noise of the autofocus and optical SteadyShot systems using electro-magnetic actilation for the iris and focus motor to minimize any audible interference on video recordings.
The camcorder is supplied with a specially developed Quad Capsule Spatial Array Stereo Mic, which captures sound through four capsules (front left, front right, rear left, rear right). Sound is captured by each capsule and later combined into the optimal stereo mix, Sony said. The result is said to be a 2x increase in directivity compared to traditional camcorder mics, while minimizing background noise with an emphasis on front sound compared to 5.1-channel recording systems, the company said.
The camcorder includes a 3-inch (921,000-pixel) LCD monitor with Sony's True Black anti-reflective coating technology. Also included is a swivel electronic viewfinder.
Other features include full manual control capability using a jog dial, headphone jack, mic jack and HDMI output.
In addition to taking professional-quality video shots, the VG10 was designed to take professional-looking still photos as well.
To help with still image capture, Sony has included its multi-shot capture and layering function, offering higher light sensitivity when used with the included anti-motion blur and handheld twilight modes.
It also uses multi-shot capability with high dynamic range and the image sensor's extra large pixels.
Multi-frame three-shot capture is offered for use with high dynamic range allowing up to 6dB of headroom.
Video images are captured in up to 1920-by-1080/60i AVCHD format at 24Mbps. Stills and video are recorded to SD or MemoryStick memory cards.
The company is also including its Sony Vegas Studio 10 (a $129 value) video-editing software through a download voucher that ships with the camcorder.
Sony's NEX-VG10 ($1,999 with lens) is one of the world's first interchangeable-lens camcorders for the consumer market.
The one thing that stands out that this is a very different video camera to the HMC40, so we are talking about two very different markets and usages here. Granted if you are shooting a "film" with shallow DOF, the Sony has the advantage, but the article says nothing about how much control over the settings the user has. Given that it's for the consumer market, I'll bet it sure isn't as much as the HMC40.
I don't own any stock in Panasonic or Sony, so it really doesn't not matter to me what camera someone buys; however, I do own stock in Ford, so buy a Ford!!! :laugh:
Bob Diaz
Vincent Del Vecchio
Active member
I bought a Mazda RX-8 and Ford and Mazda are in cahoots. So there!
This is inevitable... and changing, fast.
This is inevitable... and changing, fast.
The success of the Canon EOS 5D Mark II, followed up by other video-capable DSLRs, was a shot across the bow for pro/prosumer camcorder manufacturers. Canon was reportedly surprised... they expected 5% of buyers to use the video feature, but it's more like 40% of buyers buying Just For Video.
So it's inevitable that DSLR technology (single large sensor, interchangeable lens) will become an option in the camcorder world. You could take some of the existing DSLR tech, change the software a bit, and make a very good interchangeable lens camcorder. Some... not so much, they overheat after 10-20 minutes of video. But the direction is clear.
DSLRs as camcorders are getting serious, well deserved traction already, but they're not a direct replacement for existing cameras. They are great for dark shoots, under very controlled conditions (particularly how manual may get in video mode), on a tripod (OIS usually doesn't work in video mode, and even if it did, the focus seeking algorithm is probably a big fail for video).
The downside... your zoom is going to be relatively short or huge and really expensive. Overall, this gear will be much larger than current gear, though I suppose the minaturization being practiced by Sony and Panasonic on their ILC cameras will help out here.
Once these are designed for video, they're going to be pretty nice for video. But the camcorder companies have kind of a quandry. For one, the video version isn't going to be substantially more expensive to make than the DSLR of today... but it'll shoot video quality better than many high-end pro models. So, do they make $500 bodies and risk destroying part of the high-end market, or do they make them expensive, and continue to let Canon win this segment of the market? It's going to be an interesting time...
This is inevitable... and changing, fast.
The success of the Canon EOS 5D Mark II, followed up by other video-capable DSLRs, was a shot across the bow for pro/prosumer camcorder manufacturers. Canon was reportedly surprised... they expected 5% of buyers to use the video feature, but it's more like 40% of buyers buying Just For Video.
So it's inevitable that DSLR technology (single large sensor, interchangeable lens) will become an option in the camcorder world. You could take some of the existing DSLR tech, change the software a bit, and make a very good interchangeable lens camcorder. Some... not so much, they overheat after 10-20 minutes of video. But the direction is clear.
DSLRs as camcorders are getting serious, well deserved traction already, but they're not a direct replacement for existing cameras. They are great for dark shoots, under very controlled conditions (particularly how manual may get in video mode), on a tripod (OIS usually doesn't work in video mode, and even if it did, the focus seeking algorithm is probably a big fail for video).
The downside... your zoom is going to be relatively short or huge and really expensive. Overall, this gear will be much larger than current gear, though I suppose the minaturization being practiced by Sony and Panasonic on their ILC cameras will help out here.
Once these are designed for video, they're going to be pretty nice for video. But the camcorder companies have kind of a quandry. For one, the video version isn't going to be substantially more expensive to make than the DSLR of today... but it'll shoot video quality better than many high-end pro models. So, do they make $500 bodies and risk destroying part of the high-end market, or do they make them expensive, and continue to let Canon win this segment of the market? It's going to be an interesting time...
PerroneFord
Deals in Lead
My best guess about what is going to happen is that in 2 years this will all shake out, and we'll be back pretty much to the status quo.
We'll have 4 distinct tiers just as we do today:
1. High end digital cinema (Epic, Alexa, F35, SI2K, etc.)
2. High end broadcast (still working mainly in 2/3
3. Prosumer/sub $10k (mostly your DSLR/HPX/XDCamEX buyers)
4. Consumer mostly on 1/3" - 1/2" sensors
The reasons for this are as simple looking to the futre, as they are today.
Primarily, the big boys in cinema are at the pointy end. They get the best sensors, the best technology, and they have the money, time, and talent to use them properly.
The big boys in broadcast need to film football games, baseball games, car races, etc. And often on long lenses. That razor thin m4/3, S35, or FF35 DOF is going to be much more a hinderance to what they are doing than a help. And as mentioned, it's going to be AWFULLY hard for them to get he lenses they need.
The prosumer group is willing and has been willing to follow in the footsteps of the high end markets, generally following along the paths of the big money guys they want to emulate. Those interested in sports work, have gone with 1/3" versions of what the 2/3" guys have been using. And those interested in digital cinema, are working around the limitations of DSLRs trying emulate what Hollywood is doing. I don't see that changing much.
And on the consumer end, with mom trying to film the kid's soccer game, or dad trying to film the school play, the larger sensor is helpful for light gathering, but they NEED that fully automatic mode and the autofocus. And something like the GH1 is going to be perfect for their needs. The AF100 is not their camera. They need a bells and whistles version for $1500 and a stripped down model for $799.
I think any marketing survey would probably show something quite similar, but that's just my take on it.
We'll have 4 distinct tiers just as we do today:
1. High end digital cinema (Epic, Alexa, F35, SI2K, etc.)
2. High end broadcast (still working mainly in 2/3
3. Prosumer/sub $10k (mostly your DSLR/HPX/XDCamEX buyers)
4. Consumer mostly on 1/3" - 1/2" sensors
The reasons for this are as simple looking to the futre, as they are today.
Primarily, the big boys in cinema are at the pointy end. They get the best sensors, the best technology, and they have the money, time, and talent to use them properly.
The big boys in broadcast need to film football games, baseball games, car races, etc. And often on long lenses. That razor thin m4/3, S35, or FF35 DOF is going to be much more a hinderance to what they are doing than a help. And as mentioned, it's going to be AWFULLY hard for them to get he lenses they need.
The prosumer group is willing and has been willing to follow in the footsteps of the high end markets, generally following along the paths of the big money guys they want to emulate. Those interested in sports work, have gone with 1/3" versions of what the 2/3" guys have been using. And those interested in digital cinema, are working around the limitations of DSLRs trying emulate what Hollywood is doing. I don't see that changing much.
And on the consumer end, with mom trying to film the kid's soccer game, or dad trying to film the school play, the larger sensor is helpful for light gathering, but they NEED that fully automatic mode and the autofocus. And something like the GH1 is going to be perfect for their needs. The AF100 is not their camera. They need a bells and whistles version for $1500 and a stripped down model for $799.
I think any marketing survey would probably show something quite similar, but that's just my take on it.
Barry_Green
Moderator
What's the source for that statistic?
Snapper123
Well-known member
So hey guys, I just discovered this camera, and I have questions!
1. So what is the frame rate exactly? The original post was confusing, I couldn't decipher if it's 24P, 30P, 30P with a 60i Pulldown, I just don't know. I just know I'm not touching anything but Progressive footage unless the resolution size outweighs the negatives; like say, this camera was a 4K interlaced camera. Otherwise, no. I mean, I know that a 60i pulldown is supposed to produce equally excellent results when converted back to 30P, but c'mon, that's just a hassle.
2. Does this camera have the aliasing artifacts of a DSLR, or are the properties of it closer to the professional video cameras? *I still have no clue why these two HAVE to be different, camcorders take high MP photos too and it's not like they have aliasing in the videos. Why can't DSLR's do that?*
3. What lens range is availible? If it's camera specific, it doesn't seem like a big leap, but I've read that adaptors may be possible. Overall though, as long as the lens range covers the norms, I don't have a problem. The kit lens of 18-200 seems heavenly, which indeed would turn a 1,500$ body into a $2000 camera. So far, the price of this camera in real life scientific standards seems to be worth $1,000, exactly half the price they are selling it for. They are most likely making a 75% profit on this camera, based on what I know. But that also makes sense in this economy. All in all, seems fair.
4. When's it gonna be out? I've read Sept. 10, but it doesn't look like it.
Anyway, this camera seems to be an honest competitor to the new Nikon DSLR, which costs only $700. If this camera doesn't have aliasing issues, which causes both on screen glitches in patterns, and destroys the quality of the video in general, then this Sony camera may indeed be the winner of 2010 - a camera I may indeed sell my T2i for. $2,000 doesn't seem to be a bad price for a interchangable lens camera.
Thing is though, 30P vs 24P IS a big difference from what I've read - not in look, but in purpose. I've read that its a HUGE problem to convert 30P footage properly if you want to distribute your film in digital cinemas (24P), which is MY purpose. But honestly, I've also read that digital projectors in cinema display at 60P (not 60i) by doubling each frame, and I'm guessing that would require a 30P video. But I've not actually got this information from any sources other than Wikipedia and a few users, so I wish for someone to confirm what is the best frame rate to be compatible with digital cinema and cinema projectors (most cinema's now use digital projectors 75% of the time, or are at least equipped with them for special purposes, such as pre-preview local advertisments and special meetings/in-cinema church services/local filmmaker showings.)
1. So what is the frame rate exactly? The original post was confusing, I couldn't decipher if it's 24P, 30P, 30P with a 60i Pulldown, I just don't know. I just know I'm not touching anything but Progressive footage unless the resolution size outweighs the negatives; like say, this camera was a 4K interlaced camera. Otherwise, no. I mean, I know that a 60i pulldown is supposed to produce equally excellent results when converted back to 30P, but c'mon, that's just a hassle.
2. Does this camera have the aliasing artifacts of a DSLR, or are the properties of it closer to the professional video cameras? *I still have no clue why these two HAVE to be different, camcorders take high MP photos too and it's not like they have aliasing in the videos. Why can't DSLR's do that?*
3. What lens range is availible? If it's camera specific, it doesn't seem like a big leap, but I've read that adaptors may be possible. Overall though, as long as the lens range covers the norms, I don't have a problem. The kit lens of 18-200 seems heavenly, which indeed would turn a 1,500$ body into a $2000 camera. So far, the price of this camera in real life scientific standards seems to be worth $1,000, exactly half the price they are selling it for. They are most likely making a 75% profit on this camera, based on what I know. But that also makes sense in this economy. All in all, seems fair.
4. When's it gonna be out? I've read Sept. 10, but it doesn't look like it.
Anyway, this camera seems to be an honest competitor to the new Nikon DSLR, which costs only $700. If this camera doesn't have aliasing issues, which causes both on screen glitches in patterns, and destroys the quality of the video in general, then this Sony camera may indeed be the winner of 2010 - a camera I may indeed sell my T2i for. $2,000 doesn't seem to be a bad price for a interchangable lens camera.
Thing is though, 30P vs 24P IS a big difference from what I've read - not in look, but in purpose. I've read that its a HUGE problem to convert 30P footage properly if you want to distribute your film in digital cinemas (24P), which is MY purpose. But honestly, I've also read that digital projectors in cinema display at 60P (not 60i) by doubling each frame, and I'm guessing that would require a 30P video. But I've not actually got this information from any sources other than Wikipedia and a few users, so I wish for someone to confirm what is the best frame rate to be compatible with digital cinema and cinema projectors (most cinema's now use digital projectors 75% of the time, or are at least equipped with them for special purposes, such as pre-preview local advertisments and special meetings/in-cinema church services/local filmmaker showings.)
Jason Allen
Well-known member
1) The framerate appears to be 30p in a 60i wrapper. 24p is not available, nor are XLR inputs.
2) No idea.
3) You can use any of the Sony Alpha lenses on it with AF retained via an adapter. The 18-200 will perform like a 28-300 lens on a 35mm SLR, so you'll have moderate wide angle through supertelephoto covered. I'd be willing to bet that adapters will become available via 3rd party manufacturers once the camera starts shipping, i.e. Nikon "F" to Sony mount, Canon FD to Sony mount, etc.
4) End of September according to a few retailers. Pre-order now if you want one before 2011.
This camera isn't a competitor to DSLRs in my opinion; it's just a different shape video DSLR. It has all of the weaknesses of a DSLR (lack of XLR inputs, lack of servo-motor zoom, lack of multiple framerates) in a different form factor (slight advantage). Oh, and the huge disadvantage of INTERLACING!!!! WTF.
30p and 24p are very very different, and if your end delivery format is a big screen digital cinema projector, I'd stick with a camera that shoots progressive in a progressive wrapper, shoots at the appropriate framerate, and has better sound capabilities. Just my $0.02, but I don't think this Sony cam is the right one for your needs.