JVC beating the "HDX100" at NAB?

Interesting points regarding 24PA and potential incompatibility with long-form GOP compression.

Read on dvinfo where they're saying that the 24p mode on the JVC won't be any sort of HDV-compatible pulldown system, it'll instead be a new transport stream specification, one that actually records 24 distinct frames per second (no pulldown or conversion). That would make 24p recordings incompatible with HDV, but -- so what? You always have the choice, shoot HDV-compatible 30P, or proprietary 720/24P... don't know what this means for editing systems however, if editing systems will be able to recognize and work with the new JVC format or not. (or if this info is even accurate... I'm betting it is because it's Sean Dinwoodie of HSR who's reporting it, but I'm providing a disclaimer because this info is coming without any sort of direct confirmation from JVC press releases).
 
Also, regarding 19mbps... 19 megabits sounds like less than 25, but in reality you're getting a lot more bandwidth per pixel in 19mbps 720/30p than you are in 25mbps 1080/60i.

In HDV 1080i, you're getting 25 megabits to encode 30 frames of 1.5m pixels. In HDV 720/30p, you're getting 19 megabits to encode 30 frames of .9m pixels. So 1080i gets about 25% more bandwidth, but has to encode about 70% more pixels. The 19mbps is actually a more efficient/less lossy compression system, using a smaller GOP and more bits to encode less data. (Of course, the frames are a lot smaller too... and when you start talking about 60p, which is still encoded in the same 19mbps data stream, then the numbers take on different meanings).
 
Barry_Green said:
Also, regarding 19mbps... 19 megabits sounds like less than 25, but in reality you're getting a lot more bandwidth per pixel in 19mbps 720/30p than you are in 25mbps 1080/60i.
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That's propably true. But then again DV at 720X576 (PAL) at 25 Mbits/s has a lot more bandwidth per pixel, than either of the HDV formats. Ofcourse it's very difficult to compare interframe compression with intraframe compression, but you know what I mean. You'll just have to decide how many pixels you want, and at what compression.
I agree that 720p 25p HDV is propably more optimal than 1080i HDV compression wise.

And my point really is just that the 19 and 25 Mbits/s are just too little for an HD stream. It just doesn't feel HD compared to DV, if you only get the same datarate or less, and more compression. Despite of this complaining, I'm propably going to shoot hundreds of hours of HDV in the next ten years. And I'd rather be shooting something better.
 
Barry_Green said:
Okay, I'll officially say that I don't know anything at all about this "ProHD" camera, so this is *all* speculation.

But.

JVC developed a line of cameras and decks they called ProDV (er, it was called ProDV, wasn't it?) The DV500, DV5000, and a deck. Maybe they called it ProfessionalDV... anyway, it was identical to regular miniDV, but with better-engineered recording heads, etc (IIRC).

So, continuing in that vein, it's possible that ProHD would be the same thing to HDV as ProDV was to DV... i.e., the format is identical, but maybe better quality gear. So I would speculate that we're talking about regular 4:2:0 HDV here. However, they've long been speculated about that they could carry 24P within a 30p stream, in a similar way as to how the Panasonic VariCam can carry 24p (or, well, *any* "p") within a 60p stream. Same way Panasonic added 24p to the 60i-only DV spec. So it's possible that they will indeed be able to introduce a 24P HDV camera, even though HDV doesn't support 24p (confused?) ;)
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The 24p isn't speculation. It's on JVC's site (http://pro.jvc.com/prof/main.jsp).
 
mobody is bashing the Panasonic. Just that they are so late, one can't keep thinking about them when talking about HDV. Sony is now, JVC is also now. Panasonic coming maybe in 2006? The average professional life span is not one century, it's a few decades at most. I will not spend 1/10th of my professional life waiting for Panasonic to bring a camera to the market.
 
Funny cause Panasonic jump kicked the whole 24p thing to start with.. it took everyone else 2 years just to catch up.. well,, kinda catch up.. so I bet they arn't taking chances, and the new P2 camera will prove to be a sucess. It helps that they had the 24p thing down, and have had a few years to get professional feedback on the P2 system (albiet SD).. so dont worry Princeigalli... you wont be waiting for too long.
 
princigalli said:
mobody is bashing the Panasonic. Just that they are so late, one can't keep thinking about them when talking about HDV. Sony is now, JVC is also now. Panasonic coming maybe in 2006? The average professional life span is not one century, it's a few decades at most. I will not spend 1/10th of my professional life waiting for Panasonic to bring a camera to the market.
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Hi Princigalli,

What does, waiting 1/10th of your professional life mean? I don't get that statement. If we were saying 2006, and we are not we are saying 2005, we are talking one year, so you are saying that you are going to be working only ten years? Perhaps you are independently wealthy, I know I have been in this business for now 31 years.

If you are waiting for Panasonic to make an HDV camera because that is the level of performance you are happy with, then it may be 2006, but I am not even sure about that. See I think what professionals want is real 24P with no concessions, They was each frame's resolution to stand on its own, they want color correctable 4:2:2 in the native codec, they want uncompressed audio and the dependability of not having to worry about dropouts in the first or third playback.

I think that the JVC ProHD will be a higher bit rate which is why they are calling it ProHD and not ProHDV, although I don't know. SO that leaves the question that many should ask about the current level of support for HDV editing, did the NLE guys leave room in the edit plan for higher bit rates? And if it isn't a higher bit rate, it will be bit starved just like the single chip camera is. Additonally they have to get the algorithm to work with the 24P nature, make that work into a some form of a GOP. There is some serious work to be done, and with luck they have done their homework.

Anyhow, this does promise to be an interesting NAB. And the thing is Princigalli is that when we introduced the DVX100, we were not even in the roadmap for desireable cameras, and yet the DVX100 took the market by storm, because it was the right product. So you can choose anything, but I do believe that the P2 DVCPROHD product to be the superior solution for the independent producer, as it is not just a DVCPROHD product, it can go where you need it to go, underwater, on a crane, or on the steadicam and into the edit suite, all with products that are out there today.

This is what is wonderful about this industry, it is a democractic as it comes, and the winner is the one that has the best solutions.

Best,

Jan
 
OPHERBA said:
In my opinion JVC is the only company that by introducing a good product will not kill their own upper professional market because it is hardly exist (when was the last time anybody saw an ENG team running around with a JVC video camera)?
They can "afford" it when Sony and Pansonic simply can't.
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What about that other small player. "Canon"
 
Of course, even though Canon is committed to the HDV pact with JVC and the others, it will still be interesting to see what variation they implement for initiating their HD lineup.

Even with the obvious advantages of having a ridiculously large collection of lenses for every application, in house CMOS development and image processing units, they will still only push it so far. They aren’t going to completely alienate themselves from the others.

I think JVC caught wind of what Canon may have had up their sleeves, and is attempting to beat them to the punch. But then again, JVC could have made this move after discovering what Canon didn’t have up their sleeves, and they decided to immediately fill that segment knowing it would be void. Which one could then conclude that Canon is set to make a pretty bold move of their own :happy:
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
[T]he winner is the one that has the best solutions.
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If that were only true. It seems that the winner is the one with the most influence. Sometimes it's Sony (many people are betting on 1080i winning out over 720p), sometimes it's Matsushita (remember VHS vs Betamax?).
 
Tzedekh said:
If that were only true. It seems that the winner is the one with the most influence. Sometimes it's Sony (many people are betting on 1080i winning out over 720p), sometimes it's Matsushita (remember VHS vs Betamax?).
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The point of the argument here is the best solutions, and don't bet on the 1080 vs 720, they both will be a part of the HD game for a long time to come. I can prove an argument for either and an upconverst from 720P to 1080I looks equally as good out to broacast and and only the extremely discerning with compalin if it out to film. And if that happens the storyteller didn't do the job.

As far as the VHS vs Beta, there is a huge world of difference, one is a consumer decision, where the long run quality is based on the length of the recording and the other is a professional decison about how your work will hold up to the final delivery. This was VHS/Beta war an engineering question posed to consumers. They couldn't care less about the quality, only the quantity. I believe professionals are up a grade or two from there.

As far as a production format, I think that most in this forum should be very clear on what their choices are and why you make them, and what the ramifications are for making them. Choosing a format like VHS just because it is an easy long record, doesn't help you if the picture is difficult to work with, the color correction if only possibly in a different algorithm and the audio is challenged.

My .02,

Jan
 
Jan, provided that the HDX will not be shipping until late summer/early fall, what are Your und Panasonics plans to refrain the vendees of buying the new JVC, which will already ship on June 1st?
 
Robert,

The folks that wish to buy into HDV or whatever ProHD is on June 1st will. However, I feel that if people understand the compromises that HDV brings to what they really want to do with it, then they will rent and wait. I can't make them wait and I can't deliver sooner.

I can only hope to educate people about the workflow in P2, the advantages of working in a tape free environs and the beauty of having a product that not only can do I frame only HD, but also Digi Beta quality and DV. If they choose to buy into HDV, what can I do? They will or they wont. I can only work to work with the factory and the engineering team to bring the best camera to the market and if should be, then it will make it sales targets. I can work to let people know the features and benefits of the camera itself.

I think it will become more of a question to those that do buy early and then once they see and fully understand the Panasonic solution, will wish they had not purchased. It really is not a question that has an answer is it? ;-)

Best regards,

Jan
 
only teasers...
someone's already posted a link to the teaser image within this thread, I think it's a couple pages back...
 
jvc hd

jvc hd

The jvc hd pro is not a bad looking cam if thats what it will look like. i hope the pany ag-hddvx2000 will follow the same style of cam as far as looks go.
 
OPHERBA said:
In my opinion JVC is the only company that by introducing a good product will not kill their own upper professional market because it is hardly exist (when was the last time anybody saw an ENG team running around with a JVC video camera)?
They can "afford" it when Sony and Pansonic simply can't.
Click to expand...

that sounds just about right...!!

pana, sony will dumb down the product so it doesnt canibalizes their higher end products,

jvc doesnt need to....

makes sense...
 
JVC isn't the only one with that advantage.
Canon also has a significant amount of space to not only innovate off of their current line of products, but also introduce an entirely new line without tearing into a preexisting line of HD or high end SD cameras.

However, Canon will only push the envelope so far.
Canon isn’t entrenched in the research and development war of media formats like Sony and Panasonic/JVC. This does have its benefits for the future, but for now, the development of their camera system is dependant on the dominant media format from one of these two companies.

As a result, Sony and Panasonic/JVC call the shots while Canon just kind of plays along…for now anyways.
If you look at Canon in the digital photography world, particularly the DSLR market, they take no prisoners; they are the leaders in that segment. As for video, they’re a little more reserved, but that’s exactly how one would have labeled them not long ago when Nikon was the leader in photography. Just something to think about.

Man, that’d be funny if Sharp came out of nowhere and blindsided everybody with the best solution. :grin:
 
Jan_Crittenden said:
The folks that wish to buy into HDV or whatever ProHD is on June 1st will. However, I feel that if people understand the compromises that HDV brings to what they really want to do with it, then they will rent and wait. I can't make them wait and I can't deliver sooner.

I can only hope to educate people about the workflow in P2, the advantages of working in a tape free environs and the beauty of having a product that not only can do I frame only HD, but also Digi Beta quality and DV. If they choose to buy into HDV, what can I do? They will or they wont. I can only work to work with the factory and the engineering team to bring the best camera to the market and if should be, then it will make it sales targets. I can work to let people know the features and benefits of the camera itself.

I think it will become more of a question to those that do buy early and then once they see and fully understand the Panasonic solution, will wish they had not purchased. It really is not a question that has an answer is it? ;-)
Click to expand...

Okay Jan, You have convinced me. I will wait till NAB and then see, what JVC and Panasonic will offer me. And yes, if the new HDX will be better, of course I will wait and collect money. But I do not see it to pay more than 6.000 dollars/5.000 Euros, therefore I am hoping very much...
 
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