JVC beating the "HDX100" at NAB?

WOW, screw Hollywood features, the machination/justification on this board as people hash out CAMERAS THAT DO NOT EXIST is much better than any I've seen lately!
Here's a flash: YOU buy a camera because of whatever REASONS you have found. THEY buy one for their REASONS.
Trying to "convince" someone else that they're wrong on contemplating/purchasing 'the other' brand is quite hilarious; please, keep it up, you're free entertainment!
 
Jack_Felis said:
I wonder what Canon's going to do now that interchangeable lenses and 24p aren't uncommon, what can they possibly bring to the table?
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Canon has always been slow and deliberate, and it didn't invent DV either, but it did produce a very popular, high-end prosumer SD camcorder. What could it bring to the table? How about the following?

1. Three half-inch, 2-Mpixel CCDs (or CMOS chips)
2. 1080p24 at 4:2:2 and >50 Mbps
3. Half-inch lens mount
4. Tape, hard-drive, and solid-state storage
5. Price: <$6,000 with lens

Canon may not be the first, but it could be the best at the best price. But it probably won't -- it seems to lack the will to compete in this high-features:price-ratio arena, even though, like JVC, it has no high-end offering to "protect."
 
Oh, I'm sure Canon will announce something at NAB; I'm predicting it'll be an HDV GL3.

As far as what else they can bring to the table, I think Tzedekh is on to something with the idea of half-inch (or, dare I say, 2/3") CCDs. Canon isn't, after all, really a camcorder company, they're a lens company. If they made a killer 2/3" or 1/2" camera that could take industry-standard lenses (i.e., the ones Canon already sells) then it could maybe serve as a nice platform for them to move some more lenses!

As far as them doing 1080p/24 at 4:2:2 and at a higher bitrate, I don't think there's a chance on earth that would happen. That would involve creating a new format, and I don't think Canon has any interest in doing that. JVC may innovate it, JVC's wildly innovative, but I really don't expect Canon to do anything like that. I don't see them extending/going beyond the HDV specification when they haven't even produced their first HDV-compliant product yet. But, hey, they may very well surprise us!
 
Barry_Green said:
As far as them doing 1080p/24 at 4:2:2 and at a higher bitrate, I don't think there's a chance on earth that would happen. That would involve creating a new format, and I don't think Canon has any interest in doing that. JVC may innovate it, JVC's wildly innovative, but I really don't expect Canon to do anything like that. I don't see them extending/going beyond the HDV specification when they haven't even produced their first HDV-compliant product yet. But, hey, they may very well surprise us!
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I agree that they probably wouldn't do 1080p24, and I as much said so. But the question was, what could they bring to the table? The scuttlebutt is that JVC will do a higher-data-rate model in 2006, and Panasonic will do the same this year. The HDV spec itself appears to be a subset of the MPEG-2 profiles and levels spec, which supports higher rates. And as far 1080p24 goes, that would probably be inserted into a 1080i60 signal.

This is a long-winded way of saying that Canon will have to offer a viable combination of price, features, and performance if it hopes to compete in the HDV/prosumer HD market. JVC and Panasonic are offering 24p and non-tape-based storage; JVC, removable lenses; and Panasonic, higher color sampling
data and rate. Both cameras are rumored to cost less than $10,000. So you may be right -- Canon may try to compete, at least initially, on price, with an HDV GL3 at less than $3,000. If the camera also supports 24p, well, all the better.
 
Now why didn't I think of that -- a GL3/HDV with 24p! Canon could smack a serious home run, or at least a good solid triple, with a camera like that! Certainly would give the FX1 a run for its money. And they already know 24p now... *verrrry* interesting! They promoted the GL2 endlessly as a "filmmakers" camera, held tours and training all across the country, took out magazine ads... it makes sense...

... I wonder if they'll do it? I haven't heard a single rumor from any source, so if they do, it'll be a total shocker, which is exactly what they need.

Okay, that does it, Canon goes on my list of one-of-the-first-booths-to-visit, just to see if they've done it!
 
dont sleep on canon

dont sleep on canon

princigalli said:
I don't even take canon in consideration because no matter how good the cameras are, not everybody can afford to work with a camera that looks like a UFO.
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if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

if i was at canon...

GL3 with 1/3 ccd no tape drive just a canon branded 40 gb 2.5inch laptop harddisk for $2500 street and $2999 retail with sd resolution(yeah baby crappy sd with cut off bars this is after all a GL3, then 6 months later XL3 announcement... 2 months later XL3 widescreen with 80gb harddrisk release for $4999

sad a canon rep might never see this but jan can =)

jan take me before another corporation scoops me up =-)~
 
lebroz said:
if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)
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What the hell are you talking about?
Canon an underdog? I doubt that.
I'm glad to see that you have ideas, but how do you assume the list price would reflect everything that you have added into the camera?
And why do you think they should release another SD XL2 with 16:9, just so it could have a hard drive?
 
Just a thought, someone said that Canon has no high-end line to protect, but is that true? I know they don't have a professional line of their own to protect, but they make their money making lenses for other companies professional cameras. Is their a possibility that they are protecting THOSE cameras so as not to infringe on their lens business? Just a question, I really have no idea.

I have to say, I've been testing out the 16X manual lens and deliberating between that and the 14X full manual and they are both amazing lenses. While I like the manual iris on the 14X the 16x is a beautiful lens optically. And it is a REAL lens. I would think that would be important for any company moving further into the "indie filmmaker" market. Yes, interchangeable lenses are nice (I often switch between the 20X and the 3X for different reasons), but this 16X manual really is the sweet spot, me thinks. I could see going to a fixed lens configuration if a lens like this (16X) where permanently attached.

As far as the mini35 goes, I have no experience with them, although I hope to get one in within the next year. I like the idea of having it attach to the camera, thereby eliminating the number of optics that the image needs to go through before it hits the chips. Am I wrong in thinking this way?

Matt
 
lebroz said:
if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

if i was at canon...

GL3 with 1/3 ccd no tape drive just a canon branded 40 gb 2.5inch laptop harddisk for $2500 street and $2999 retail with sd resolution(yeah baby crappy sd with cut off bars this is after all a GL3, then 6 months later XL3 announcement... 2 months later XL3 widescreen with 80gb harddrisk release for $4999
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CERTAINLY. Because it’s . . . just that easy.
 
lebroz said:
if i was working with canon...

xm3/gl3 could be a bad azz mofo(canon huge underdog so they dont talk trash and hype bullcrap like sony/samsung pana/jvc cause frankly they can litterally lose millions with saying things where the big boys can do a lot and not screw themselves, canon is the fighter with heart dont get it twisted do you see a pana or sony with removeable lens for under $5000? say what you want canon is gamleing with a market where they are not the most welcome but slowly gaining ground and therefore must be respected by sony/pana

be careful what you say, canon should be applauded they are a huge underdog they lost a lot of money on r&d with xl series for the same users that use the dvx(funny aint it)

if i was at canon...

GL3 with 1/3 ccd no tape drive just a canon branded 40 gb 2.5inch laptop harddisk for $2500 street and $2999 retail with sd resolution(yeah baby crappy sd with cut off bars this is after all a GL3, then 6 months later XL3 announcement... 2 months later XL3 widescreen with 80gb harddrisk release for $4999
Click to expand...

I didn't understand any of this. Lebroz bro'....use some punctuation. Add a few more periods and commas. It's hard to read and understand what you are saying sometimes. But like everyone else, I think Canon with have some sort of a rebuttal at NAB whether it be HDV or not. They most likely won't go silent while their competitors are showboating their new products. ~reservoir~
 
MattC said:
Just a thought, someone said that Canon has no high-end line to protect, but is that true? I know they don't have a professional line of their own to protect, but they make their money making lenses for other companies professional cameras. Is their a possibility that they are protecting THOSE cameras so as not to infringe on their lens business? Just a question, I really have no idea.
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Well, I don't think they'd care which camera you use their lenses on, as long as you're buying their lenses. Might as well buy one of their lenses attached to one of their high-end prosumer cameras, right?

On topic: The JVC and HDX have not come out yet, and the FX1, Z1, XL2 and DVX are out right now. That said, I think Canon is really falling behind with HD. In a few months, Panasonic, Sony and JVC will all have their flagship prosumer cameras delivering some sort of HD. Canon will have... 24p? So do the HDX and JVC ProHD. Interchangeable lenses? So does the JVC. Native widescreen? HDX, FX1, Z1 and JVC. I just don't see who would buy the XL2 at this point, other than someone that already has accessories for the XL1. I'm not bashing the XL2; I think it's a great camera that can produce outstanding images. And I know there will always be "something better" coming up. But The XL2 seems decidedly behind the times now that all others seem to be going the HD/SD switchable route.

I think the JVC will take away business from the XL2, not from the HDX, or even FX1 or Z1. The JVC seems ideal for long form recording to tape with HDV in 720p. I see this as a winner in event videography (where size does matter) as well as documentary work where you'll be shooting for months on end in the middle of nowhere. The FX1/Z1 do the same as the JVC, except in 1080i, and with a fixed lens (who changes lenses while shooting a wedding?) so it becomes a matter of personal preference on interlace vs progressive, and camera size.

The HDX looks like the ideal indie filmmaker camera, where real DVCproHD and 4:2:2 color should do wonders for film-out and blue-screen FX work, combined with a P2/hard disk workflow to eliminate capturing and logging. If the lens handles as good as the one on the DVX (hopefully even better) then this should become the ultimate low-budget film camera.

Therefore, I don't think the JVC is beating the HDX at NAB. I think they'll both have their strenghts, and it'll be up to us to determine which serves our purposes better. I think the one getting a beating in NAB is going to be Canon. Unless they intro something completely unexpected (like a GL3 with HDV at $1999) I think they're gonna have a not-so-good-in-sales year.
 
yes canon is an underdog.. punctusation? sorry i guess

yes canon is an underdog.. punctusation? sorry i guess

yes canon is an underdog...

you think you would see a $4000-$6000 removable lens jvc 3ccd without canon? idiot...

it has more to do with japans wealth and companys than us...

matsushita/sony are close closer than amd/intel but they need eachother all is reletive.

canon is via, they are a real underdog, you never heard of via? they make motherboard chipsets, audio codecs and little pc motherboards based out of taiwan... canon makes lenses... via cannot manufacture cpu's or gpu's(intel/amd nvidia/ati) canon makes lil lenses(yea a lot) but they dont make lcd's or ccd's they outsource buying from matsushita/sony and others so YES canon is the lil underdog that is doing great amazing things. canon has turned a lens and camera company into a electronics giant in reletively short time(10-30 years) clap for canon they deserve it, oh and canons customer service is GREAT, had a prob with printer, they are quick and have offices in U.S. i feel bad, i havnt purchased a camera product from them nope not one camera/camcorder i like pana/jvc for price performance. so far so good
 
lebroz said:
yes canon is an underdog...

you think you would see a $4000-$6000 removable lens jvc 3ccd without canon? idiot...
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OK, first, watch the namecalling.

Second, don't call names in a post where you disprove your own statement. If JVC was reacting to the XL2, that makes Canon a contender, a trendsetter, a mover and shaker, not an underdog.
 
check marketshare and total company net worth...

check marketshare and total company net worth...

check marketshare and total company net worth...

canon...

then matsushita(panasonic jvc hitachi technics & many many more) all of them and just canon, this is a trick that has been used to take over electronics markets, they all use price fixing and a lot of dirty things...

sony is in on it too (samsung, aiwa and many more)samsung is sony's new freind, check out the camcorder lines you will see obvious similarities, sony plasma tv's dvd players dont be surprised to find a samsung twin(i'd like to see a samsung PS3 that would be cool)

car analogy

GMC(go to gmc.com, you will see how many brands the are a whole lot) now with cars this backfired companys like acura/honda lexus/toyota gained huge maret share early on because of quality/service(things are starting to even out, toyota/honda have been bad for last 3-6 years) same thing is going on here..

canon is at a stage where they are trying to gain real market share and respect... they got respect =-) now they still have got nowhere close to sony/matsushita you say they are ? you hafta be an idiot

they really are amazing at what they did and are doing...

camera/lens company outa japan transforming into Canon an electronics company to be reccon with(but they really are not close to it) exactly... no high end $20000+ equipment

the rules of war and power apply, you cannon let a little nation become a power house over night, they are playing the game and taking the cards dealt by sony/matsushita. canon is very close with lens production tech for both companys(zeis leica is marketing)

most canon products incorporate sony/matsushita ccd's and electronics... digital cameras/ camcorders (although canon has started making some nice cdd tech and patents in the last 10 years

canon is the baby of the bunch and has been geting bigga and betta eating good

i'd like to see a U.S. company compete but japan has the electronics industry under wraps with chicken breast with romain lettace and organic tomato
 
res you hounding me like a dog...

every post followed shortly by you...

roof roof, nice though i know sum1 here that will undastand my p.o.v.
 
I've got your back man. I do understand *ALOT* of your points of view. We disagree on some of course...but what would an internet forum be if all 5000 members told each other how great the next guy's opinions and ideas are. We have to agree to disagree sometime. I just like the conversation. I really don't mean to hound anyone. ~reservoir~
 
jrv3034 said:
I think the JVC will take away business from the XL2, not from the HDX, or even FX1 or Z1. The JVC seems ideal for long form recording to tape with HDV in 720p. I see this as a winner in event videography (where size does matter)
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Actually, now that you bring this up, I think this is a fairly significant, if not fatal, drawback to using the JVC in those circumstances -- it can't shoot a "video"-looking image. Because it only runs at 24p and 30p (assuming that the info that's been released is, so far, accurate and complete) then that's a real problem.

Much as many/most of us prefer the 24p look, I think we'd all acknowledge that it's not ideal for all circumstances. Probably 75% of what I shoot is 24p, but that means there's still 25% that's 60i. Convention coverage, event coverage, it's all always done at 60i because that's what people want, that's what they expect, that's what feels "right". 720p doesn't provide for 60i, but it can get that same look (and better) from 60p.

If the JVC can only do 24p and 30p to tape, that's a big boo-boo on their part. I sincerely hope, for their sake, that they include 60p... (the HDV spec provides for 60p, even though no HDV camera has implemented that yet). If not, I think that leaves the field wide open for people to prefer the HDX (assuming it does 60p... Jan, are you reading this? It needs 60p!) or for the Z1/FX1.
 
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