Jumping on board RED bandwagon ?

R

raf702

Active member
With the rapid price dropping of the RED Scarlet X kits, is it a system still worth purchasing? They can be had for around $5k now a days. Older sensor and technology versus the dragon sensor which is implanted in all platforms now.

I myself was looking into to it as well, and more will be flooding the market with lowering prices. Even alongside red epic X, which I've seen around $10-12k for a ready to shoot kits. Still a bit pricey but certainly far less than before.

Only thing I'm concerned about is low light performance and frame rates of the scarlet X.

I could always go with an a7s or a7sii for low light awesomeness. But this could well be a good time to hop on the RED bandwagon.


What do you guys think? Anyone thinking about a second hand scarlet X now a days?
 
Honestly, speaking as a former Epic owner, I wouldn't jump on any bandwagon, RED or otherwise. Instead I'd say buy the least-expensive camera you can that has the features you need, and that clients will pay you to use. The Scarlet, as nice a camera as it may be, doesn't (in my mind) represent a significant step up in image quality from many of the other cameras at that price point. And being a part of the RED ecosystem only has real upside if you've got a Dragon sensor-equipped model, in my experience. In the RED ecosystem, you're locked into (mostly) proprietary bits and pieces, especially media. To me, I just don't think it's worth it.

Personally, I own a GH4. It does 90% of what I need a camera to do, and when I need more, I'll rent. In the past year we've shot with both the Alexa and the Epic Dragon, and had great experiences with both.

Own only what you need. Rent the rest when clients are paying the tab.
 
Sort agree with above. But.....

MX Red can record stella images with a production crew behind it. ( note a crew , not a one man band ) The other thing to consider MX prices are dropping even further .....so media , brains , aks will be even cheaper than the prices quoted...soon.

Which presents an interesting proposition at what point does it become worthwhile.... $4k......$3k....or even lower ...for 4K ?
 
Absolutely agreed, Mike. If you can't make something beautiful with the Scarlet (or Epic, or C300, or GH4, etc.), the camera is not the limitation. And in a fully-crewed situation, any of these cameras will shine.

I think lenses (and other universal camera accessories) are a much smarter investment these days than any one camera might be. (Unless, of course, you can keep that camera working and have clients offset the cost.) Chances are a good set of lenses will outlive any camera, and that's probably where I'd suggest the OP focus his money.

Surf it Mike said:
Sort agree with above. But.....

MX Red can record stella images with a production crew behind it. ( note a crew , not a one man band ) The other thing to consider MX prices are dropping even further .....so media , brains , aks will be even cheaper than the prices quoted...soon.

Which presents an interesting proposition at what point does it become worthwhile.... $4k......$3k....or even lower ...for 4K ?
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Stephen Mick said:
Honestly, speaking as a former Epic owner, I wouldn't jump on any bandwagon, RED or otherwise. Instead I'd say buy the least-expensive camera you can that has the features you need, and that clients will pay you to use. The Scarlet, as nice a camera as it may be, doesn't (in my mind) represent a significant step up in image quality from many of the other cameras at that price point. And being a part of the RED ecosystem only has real upside if you've got a Dragon sensor-equipped model, in my experience. In the RED ecosystem, you're locked into (mostly) proprietary bits and pieces, especially media. To me, I just don't think it's worth it.

Personally, I own a GH4. It does 90% of what I need a camera to do, and when I need more, I'll rent. In the past year we've shot with both the Alexa and the Epic Dragon, and had great experiences with both.

Own only what you need. Rent the rest when clients are paying the tab.
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I couldn't frame this any better.

+1!
 
I used to be big on owning or having direct access to high end cameras. But the reality was that I always had the wrong camera; either the features weren't precisely right, it didn't match with other cameras on set, it didn't fit with the clients brand bias... the reason doesn't matter, it was wrong too often. It's best to be identified by your abilities, not your gear. You can rent instead, and since you don't have to charge for the use of your own gear your day rate won't be significantly higher than anyone else's.
 
Stephen Mick said:
Honestly, speaking as a former Epic owner, I wouldn't jump on any bandwagon, RED or otherwise. Instead I'd say buy the least-expensive camera you can that has the features you need, and that clients will pay you to use. The Scarlet, as nice a camera as it may be, doesn't (in my mind) represent a significant step up in image quality from many of the other cameras at that price point. And being a part of the RED ecosystem only has real upside if you've got a Dragon sensor-equipped model, in my experience. In the RED ecosystem, you're locked into (mostly) proprietary bits and pieces, especially media. To me, I just don't think it's worth it.

Personally, I own a GH4. It does 90% of what I need a camera to do, and when I need more, I'll rent. In the past year we've shot with both the Alexa and the Epic Dragon, and had great experiences with both.

Own only what you need. Rent the rest when clients are paying the tab.
Click to expand...

I think lenses (and other universal camera accessories) are a much smarter investment these days than any one camera might be. (Unless, of course, you can keep that camera working and have clients offset the cost.) Chances are a good set of lenses will outlive any camera, and that's probably where I'd suggest the OP focus his money.
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This is condensed wisdom.
100% agree.
Quality support equipment and lenses will hold their value and are a far wiser investment than cameras these days.
I believe you have to treat the cameras as if they were disposable.
Two years shelf life maximum.
Don't preclude the idea that even those RED systems you speak of will not drop further too.

My experience is that Epic Mysterium X packages don't hold a candle to Dragon in any case.
They aren't worth it in terms of latitude.

So how much do you think you need 4K as well ?
I think the whole thing is overblown. Most delivery is still in FullHD.
If you don't, frankly, for the money how can you beat picking up a used F3 for less than $2K by comparison for instance ?
IMHO, better low light, dynamic range, less noise and a more "organic" feel to the images.
At this price point, disposable like this is truly affordable.

In terms of the RED community. How do you feel about joining a bunch of fanatic hard boys who think everything is totally rad, dude?
Actually, I am being unfair, things have calmed down quite a bit there and some good info is to be found on more serious equipment on the Reduser site, but it can still be prone to this mentality.
 
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Stephen Mick said:
The Scarlet, as nice a camera as it may be, doesn't (in my mind) represent a significant step up in image quality from many of the other cameras at that price point.
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I'd have to disagree, and it's not because I own a Scarlet.

Scarlet-X still has a cinema ready image. It can do cinema.
Funnily, I recognized this more and more while I was/am working with the newer generation of cameras.

Adding what Mike said and looking at prices for used Scarlet-X, and the solid RED workflow, it's something to consider.
 
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stip said:
I'd have to disagree, and it's not because I own a Scarlet.

Scarlet-X still has a cinema ready image. It can do cinema.
Funnily, I recognized this more and more while I was/am working with the newer generation of cameras.

Adding what Mike said and looking at prices for used Scarlet-X, and the solid RED workflow, it's something to consider.
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Well as a former owner of both a Scarlet and Epic, I am 100% agreement with Stephen.

Yes the image is good.

It is not, however leaps and bounds better than other cameras AT THE SAME PRICE POINT.
 
I'd estimate around 5K for a ready to shoot used Scarlet-X.
No, it's not leaps and bounds better.
I'd still say it's very good, not just good. Depends on what you're doing, it's certainly not a run&gun camera.
 
I'm in the good-glass camp.

I shot film (Stills) commercially through the 1990's, lots of fashion and for some well-known brands. Mix of MF and 35.

All of the Nikon glass I used daily back then, I use daily now for video.

Sure, we're not talking $5k cinema primes, but still… 2+ decades of the same glass. It feels good.
 
So what are the competitors around this price range ( other than DLSR ) that can output 4K ?

PS With the fragmentation of formats into larger sensors not so sure about glass being a great investment either.
 
I went for the old and tested R1MX.
With all the accessories I need it cost me less than a A7sii Body Only. And has an, imo, image leaps and bounds better.

I wont use it for Run n Gun, more for personal projects. But no crew is needed. In fact its a pretty compact little camera compared to the ENG cams I started doing one man ban gigs with back in the day. Smaller tripod as well.

But Red isn't first and foremost about the image imo. Its the codec. The power of Raw with the ease of prores makes it a winner,
 
This is an excellent thread, that at this point in my camera life has really hit home. Stephen addressed what has been nawing at me for several months now. I began selling off my cameras last year at this time first with my FS100 which though not ideal, made excellent images and paid for itself many many times over and made me money. This is what I had learned to expect from a camera. Not these days however. Luckily a little voice kept telling me to keep my glass and filters and matte box etc. My ENG camera, a tough and flexible PMW 300 fully kitted out with a Shape base etc. is like new due to lack of work mostly and will now go up for sale. Sh1t happens as they say but there is not enough demand in my markets for the rig. So after many years of ENG/EFP work this one will go too. Up here TV stations and networks are cutting production and camera people by the dozens every couple of months and many are now in what was always a tough freelance market but now becoming more of a discount market and they don't buy they rent. I will now take Stephen's advice and keep all my glass and buy something "disposable" but adequate and rent. I too have been looking at the price of used Red equipment but always end up with a larger number at the end of the addition due the cost of everything else Red you need to buy to make the box work. An A7s and an X70 for the quick and dirty will be my route. Thanks Stephen and others for helping me come to a final decision. Oh yeh I should also mention I don't like the "combat ready" attitude of Red marketing IMHO there are better subjects to compare your technology to than instruments of death. With all due respect to my fellow Canadian and SAIT grad Jarred Land.
 
BrianMurphy said:
Up here TV stations and networks are cutting production and camera people by the dozens every couple of months and many are now in what was always a tough freelance market but now becoming more of a discount market and they don't buy they rent.
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No kidding. The cuts to broadcast and pulling of funding is forcing me to scramble this year to diversify my client base towards more corporate (boring) clients which now forces me as a professional to compete against kids without dependants and mortgages undercutting everyone. Without development money for concepts and pilots many production companies are just getting internal employees to shoot proof of concept examples. They don't look near as good but no one is putting any money out there as the risk grows. The large crew big film side of the industry is doing well with the lower dollar but man everything in broadcast is on hold. I've had 3 projects end up on hold with the uncertainty.
 
With hiring , how often will you be doing it? Once a week, once a month ?

Calculate hiring fees over say a year and pending the result, by a used high end camera , you could well end up spending less overall than hiring fees.

However in adverse market conditions sometimes it pays to sit on the fence ; ) .

Ps IMO. "those kids" (just like in the dlsr days ) tend to disappear after a few jobs because this job entails so much more than just shooting shallow Dof or on trend framing.
 
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I wish they were all "kids" who will disappear, but sadly they are people who have 5-10 and more years in the business shooting ENG, studio and mobile productions. All good folks with obligations that people in any business with their experience would have. As for the hiring vs buying math, you may be right depending on the market and the year but the advantage is you hire the latest and greatest and that always goes down well with most clients.
 
I dunno, I've used the bmcc, bmpcc, f3, fs7, fs100, c100, c300, gh4, a7s etc. and the Scarlet I think is noticeably better if you're using it in a cinema setting. The canons and the Blackmagic cams come the closest imo.

I will agree that the quality is close enough that your viewer won't think something shot on a c300 looks low rent compared to a Red. If you want the absolute best you can get for ~$6k (used), I really think the Scarlet is the best. Redcode alone makes it worth it.

My .02...
 
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