i plan on doing action scenes that dont really require audio cuz ima dub it over with music but for dialog scenes indoors and outdoors which would be best for reducing unwanted noise, and if you guys suggest know of a better product thats affordable let me know, thanks ohh and if there is a post about this already please link me and mods delete this thread
juicedLink CX231 vs h4n which is better for getting clean audio
- Thread starter scorn
- Start date
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
The Juiced Link device is an amp. Its not a recorder. The Zoom H4N is a digital recorder.
They are used for different things.
If you want to record audio with a pro mic directly into the camera, use the Juiced Link. The Phantom Power and pre-amp will allow you to feed a clean signal ready for the camera to record, especially if you have the ability to turn your audio gain all the way down to avoid the noisy preamps in camera.
The Zoom is its own recording device, and has more dynamic range / lower noise floor than the camera. So you potentially get more flexibility with your audio. But it then requires you to sync up the recording with your video in post.
There is an audio sticky on this section of the forum (and even an audio section all its own) with lots of information on this.
They are used for different things.
If you want to record audio with a pro mic directly into the camera, use the Juiced Link. The Phantom Power and pre-amp will allow you to feed a clean signal ready for the camera to record, especially if you have the ability to turn your audio gain all the way down to avoid the noisy preamps in camera.
The Zoom is its own recording device, and has more dynamic range / lower noise floor than the camera. So you potentially get more flexibility with your audio. But it then requires you to sync up the recording with your video in post.
There is an audio sticky on this section of the forum (and even an audio section all its own) with lots of information on this.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Oy. You are barking up the wrong tree, then.
The Rode video mic is designed specifically for DSLRs and other consumer-grade electronics that offer the standard 3.5mm headphone jack. The Juiced Link and Zoom only offer grounded XLR connections for pro mics, especially those that require Phantom Power. The Rode VM isn't the right connection type, and is designed to go directly in-camera.
Problem is, since it is not the "pro" version of the Rode, you won't be able to get a hot enough signal to keep the camera amps down. If you don't know what any of this means, I think you need to do some more reading before you purchase anything, because I don't think either of those options will do what you are picturing.
maranfilms
Veteran
yup excellent advice from mr. Gilden. You may be better off getting rid of the rode video mic, and then buying a h4n and pro mic. Your audio will be head and shoulders above the rode vid mic into the cam.
brandonanthony1
Well-known member
Gilden, from your tests, what do you think about the VMP + ML on the 550? I've been doing some tests and found the audio to be really, really good. Only problem is, I don't have a lot to compare it to. Any thoughts?
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Yes, its been rather good. The limited range of the camera's amps bother me a bit, though- I normally have to raise the volume about +8db in post when using the VMP at +20 and the camera's gain set to 0. The camera doesn't offer any in between in analog gain from 0 to +10db (according to Magic Lantern developer a1ex himself, its likely a limitation of the chipset), so I'm stuck with it like this. Raising the gain +8 in post isn't so terrible, but with the noise floor of these cameras being rather high I like to stay away from that as often as possible.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
That would be great for the VM non-pro. Once you have the +20db gain from the pro, part of the idea here is that you shouldn't need an additional preamp. But I suppose this would let me get closer to my ideal volume before raising in post- still, I don't know if the difference in quality would be noticeable enough to warrant a device like this.
Unless you are unfortunate enough to be stuck on a camera like the 7D which can't disable AGC. This has that "noise track" trick to turn it off.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Magic Lantern offers headphone monitoring, and directly from the camera (always more accurate to monitor from the last device in a chain of connections). Its one of the reasons I still prefer this setup to a GH2. But yes, you'd have to install Magic Lantern (which isn't really a "hack", but rather a "mod". I'm not going to go into the difference here). But, since the 5DII, 60D and t3i all offer the ability to disable AGC, this is really only relevant for the 7D or T2i users.
I highly recommend t2i users shoot with Magic Lantern for various reasons, so the only people I can think to recommend this to are 7D owners. I guess the OP should really tell us what camera we are discussing for this.
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
Well, the Rode is ok if you're going through an amp first, like the Juiced Link DS214 we've been mentioning. It essentially does the same thing as the +20db in the pro version, only you are doing it externally from the mic (VMP has the gain built in). There are some other advantages that we point out, such as headphone monitoring (if not running the Magic Lantern suite) and AGC disabling if using a 7D, and it looks like you actually have more precise control of the gain (appears to have an analog dial to control the value of the gain so it is not +20db or nothing).
Or, you can get a Zoom H1, which is the H4N's little cousin that is designed for 3.5mm jack devices (instead of the more professional XLR on the H4N). Its pretty inexpensive too, usually less than $100. I've never used one, but I've heard they sound just fine, not suffering from as many limitations as the camera's audio.
If you want to go with an H4N, you're going to want to also purchase a good mic.
Or, you can get a Zoom H1, which is the H4N's little cousin that is designed for 3.5mm jack devices (instead of the more professional XLR on the H4N). Its pretty inexpensive too, usually less than $100. I've never used one, but I've heard they sound just fine, not suffering from as many limitations as the camera's audio.
If you want to go with an H4N, you're going to want to also purchase a good mic.
This topic has a lot of technical details and good info about what Magic Lantern does to audio: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/all-things-audio/498727-agc-disable-magic-lantern-vs-juicedlink-2.html
Basically, a 5D2 without ML, on manual audio, has its analog gain fixed at +31dB. I believe this is the same on all the cameras (didn't check myself yet). This means you can get lower noise with ML than with Canon's manual controls, because ML lets you turn the analog gain off (i.e. bypass in-camera preamps, which are noisy).
This may explain the hiss on 600D experienced by scorn and maybe other users. ML is not yet available to change audio settings on 600D.
Note: this is pure theory. I'm not an audio expert, and I've copied all the audio code from Trammell (only polished the GUI a bit).
This page has some audio tests on 5D2 with JuicedLink CX231: http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Audio_comparison
Basically, a 5D2 without ML, on manual audio, has its analog gain fixed at +31dB. I believe this is the same on all the cameras (didn't check myself yet). This means you can get lower noise with ML than with Canon's manual controls, because ML lets you turn the analog gain off (i.e. bypass in-camera preamps, which are noisy).
This may explain the hiss on 600D experienced by scorn and maybe other users. ML is not yet available to change audio settings on 600D.
Note: this is pure theory. I'm not an audio expert, and I've copied all the audio code from Trammell (only polished the GUI a bit).
This page has some audio tests on 5D2 with JuicedLink CX231: http://magiclantern.wikia.com/wiki/Audio_comparison
well at first the hiss woas coming from a directly connected rode video mic to the canon 600d, but i have some cash to spend and its going towards audio, so if i get one of the juice links and a ntg2 would i be set for decent clean audio, or is the h4n and ntg2 better. because from what i seen is alot of ppl are using the h4n but they dont say if they are using the onboard mics or an xternal xlr mic like the ntg2 ill check out bith those links riht now
M. Gilden
Canon DSLR Moderator
While you CAN use the internal mic of the H4N, I'm pretty sure most folks that are using it here are doing so in order to use their pro audio mics. Remember, many of us are coming from the DVX and HVX era larger cameras, which sported XLR inputs directly on the body. I think much of the draw of an H4N or Juiced Link device is for folks who have already invested in pro audio equipment to continue using their gear.