Barry_Green
Moderator
HPX250. Or an HPX370 with rebate. Or a used EX1 with a Ninja.
Jannard posted some good news regarding RED EPIC
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People here are saying that an F3 with a recorder is "a joke" compared to a RED. Jesus on a stick - I'd be thrilled to be able to afford an F3. You know what? I'll be shooting a feature on something I can actually afford - a GH2, and let me tell you, I'm thrilled with the GH2. It's more camera for less money than I could have dreamed of even just a few short years ago. RED - it's not on my horizon. I actually - shockingly - don't believe my film would be one bit better with a RED, though it might be worse on account that I'd have to spend more money to get footage out of the RED - because everything else associated with working with a RED means exponentially more money than working with my cheap lil GH2. I just cannot even wrap my head around someone saying F3 with a recorder is "a joke." I feel enormously lucky to be able to buy a GH2 - such excellent quality for so little money. If you gave me an AF100 or FS100, I won't lie, I'd take it - but you know what? If you offered me an F3, I'd probably say "that's too much camera for my modest needs" - and if you offered me a RED, I'd laugh. We are so, so spoiled. If you need a RED, I have no quarrel with that, but honestly, how many do? I see short student movies shot on RED all the time (some even in the User section right now). I just wonder to myself - why couldn't that have been done on even a little GH1? All this excitement. I guess RED has a ready market, but I get exhausted just reading all the a$$ kissing and brown-nosing necessary to have the privilege of parting with tens of thousands of dollars to buy a RED, when in all honesty, you could do just as well with the "joke" of an F3... or GH1.
Although he didn't say it, he probably meant something with a bigger sensor. Barry, I know you and I have had a disagreement about the feasibility of 10-bit support on the AF100, but I think Panasonic probably wishes they had included 10-bit HD-SDI. And since they proved they could do 10-bit (and P2, for that matter) for under $7,000 on the HPX250, I expect to see it on the AF100's successor, which I predict will be announced by NAB 2012 and probably shipped very shortly thereafter. Or if they really want to wow us, a 4K, 12-bit, AVC-Ultra MFT model.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I only posted the products that can do it, regardless of sensor etc. As of right now, those are the only two products on the market, of any type and with any sensor size, at that price bracket, that record 10-bit.
I know people want to believe that it's just a few pennies here or there to add 10-bit support, but ... if it was that simple, why doesn't anyone do it? At any price bracket? The only 10-bit codec in a camcorder at all, from any manufacturer, is AVC-Intra. Canon doesn't have any cameras with 10-bit recording. JVC doesn't have any with 10-bit recording. Sony doesn't have any with 10-bit recording, until you get to the HDCAM-SR level. It just doesn't exist. People seem to want to believe that 10-bit is commonplace, but it isn't. It's pretty rare.
I know people want to believe that it's just a few pennies here or there to add 10-bit support, but ... if it was that simple, why doesn't anyone do it? At any price bracket? The only 10-bit codec in a camcorder at all, from any manufacturer, is AVC-Intra. Canon doesn't have any cameras with 10-bit recording. JVC doesn't have any with 10-bit recording. Sony doesn't have any with 10-bit recording, until you get to the HDCAM-SR level. It just doesn't exist. People seem to want to believe that 10-bit is commonplace, but it isn't. It's pretty rare.
You forgot: "Take as long as you want to do it right."
But after reading all the positive replies to Barry's post, I had to double check to make sure that I wasn't on Reduser and Barry hasn't morphed into Jim. :beer:
Cosimo Bullo
Veteran
Unfortunately the F3 with nanoflash has made a lot of Red owners very nervous... and for good reason; the footage is remarkable. I wouldn't take comments like this too seriously. Many of us who own and love our Reds do see that at 1080p the competition has now arrived.
The F3 has made ALOT of RED owners nervous, but the truth is, the F3 is soaking up more of the DSLR work. It seems, somehow, miraculously, that extra $1000 just magically appeared in budgets for an F3/lenses.....
I think they are different tools for different jobs.
When you throw sLog into the mix it will get interesting to go head to head with w/ an Epic because it will compete very well in three places, Price, Lattitude, and cleanliness of signal.
I think they are different tools for different jobs.
When you throw sLog into the mix it will get interesting to go head to head with w/ an Epic because it will compete very well in three places, Price, Lattitude, and cleanliness of signal.
I think it's relatively rare because there aren't a lot of recording formats to choose from and, as you mentioned, only one on-camera. Not everyone needs it or is willing to pay the price premium for 10-bit encoding and on-camera recording. But if the option for 10-bit external recording were pointless or so very expensive, why would Sony include it on two sub-$10K models? Because, in part, the recording half of the equation -- and its cost -- are literally externalized. And while there aren't a lot of 10-bit external codecs, there are still several to choose from and quite a few recording solutions, at range of price points. Of course, that begs the question, if Sony can do it for less than $10K, why didn't they do it with the FS100? The only thing I can think of is that they really wanted to differentiate it from the F3.
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I am really glad to see that Barry put words to what a lot of people have been feeling for a long time. What troubled me here at DVX beyond the unnecessary DSLR bashing (hey, they are what they are), was an occasional feeling that since REDuser is connected to DVX, posts were being pulled by several mods for awhile whenever the criticism of RED was involved. Mods were saying "save it for the RED forum", when we all knew that it would be immediately censored over there in Jannard land. I saw this on several occasions a while back and it definitely sent a message about what was allowed to be talked about or not. Glad to see that better sense has prevailed.
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
LOL Barry, l'enfant terrible (E
Not exactly but $41,000 (Epic-M brain) once the aluminium mount is now discontinued. Even though, I don't see why the titanium should not be an option instead or should cost 4X the aluminium price.
Epic is already available for months as matter of fact. The rest (M/X/whatever) is just... business beyond marketing. And a clever way of Jim Jannard to launch a product without being already finished as same as happened with RED ONE.
But and yet, financed by the community aka early adopters before to even be released (or still even its full specs ;-)
As happens with everything in life, the more the time goes by, the more affordable the technology comes to your hands. Only for reasons of market protection (RED ONE early adopters or still, new Epic ;-) this camera (or both?) has/have had its price increased against the rules we're used to see these days out there. Jim Jannard knows quite well what he's doing. Re-launches the justification for the M 'class' premium. Opens a new window for new Epic customers like me who didn't adhere to stage 2 or 3 (another genius implementation LOL) but need to rush in order to save $7,000-$10,000 per camera unit (in my case, twice) if don't want to lose the X train.
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Terry_Lasater
All about the Caption
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
Indeed. I hadn't read it yet, just the 1st page of the thread. Barry at his best
Emanuel
Cross-Examiner
LOL Good one. With a considerable difference, though. On topic, Barry is an indie-fresh-flag over here and now
There's a rumor that Canon is working on a 4K video camera. I wouldn't be surprised to see this, as they showed off a 4K prototype (the "hair dryer") at one of the trade shows a while ago.
I was responding to S. Matthews post. My post may have been slightly less coherent than his. I guess I find it odd that RED threads are monologue generators when caveman speak would suffice.iPhone and autocorrect?
Oddly enough, milksac, the only part of your post I understood was "that's what I'm talking about"
Price raised. Bad.
Camera available. Good.
S. Matthews
Well-known member
Thanks that's very nice of you, I was sick I know most of my posts don't make sense but still. Sorry for my incoherence. But being a little clearer with your insult would have been nice.
If you guys want to pretend that this isn't one big circle jerk at times just like reduser fine. But look at it like this, red has a product that's cameras and accessories, you have a product and that is networking and information, when it gets into the boys club attitude (or circle jerk I guess i should stick with one) it can be hard to tell the difference between someones opinion or facts, and that's all I try and do is cut through the crap to the truth. it's just some seem far to emotionally involved in this to be able to stick to just the facts (on both sides of the argument).
If you like instead of not reading any of this as I have said before take a lesson from our friend and when you decide you don't like my views pretend it's a jumble of nonsense and attack me for my structure.... honestly despite being messy and all over the place I'm sure you could understand it, but perhaps not.
mah I assume you are all nice people who just have differing opinions than me fine, it would be nice to have a calm rational discussion about this stuff but I guess it's past the point where that is possible. I will try not to reply to red comments on here as it seems facts and rational discussion is not wanted, you want to make jokes and state the same old theories. That is fine you have full right to do that, I'm sorry for messing with the fun.
Have a great time, and remember to keep on creating as none of this matters without a finished product.
ps. I know I rant a lot because there is so many incorrect statements within these discussions, that it all wants to rush out, and I don't put to much time into writing them as I and all of us have better things to do. So most of my posts end up like this and I apologize for that. oh and my "s" key is sticky and doesn't always hit so I sound like a Frenchman or to clarify my french grandfather "the bear live in the wood"
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androbot2084
Carbonite Member
I think this whole concept of the Red Revolution is misleading. If it were really a Red Revolution the pricing would be based on your ability to pay. In effect the wealthy Red owners would subsidize the poorer Red owners so the playing field would be leveled. Pricing would be based not on money but rather hour credits.
When we talk about the "digital revolution", it might refer all the way back to Francis F Coppola's speech way back in the 1970's how it would make filmmaking accessible to all. The Red EPIC may be a professional ground breaking camera, but it's not what spawned a movement. It's more the DSLRs - enabling decent image making for generally anyone - that may be more of what Coppola had in mind.
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