Is there really a benefit using ProRes?

[PerroneFord]

Thanks for the great answers/information.

It sounds like the real benefit is for color correction but I still don't get how converting a file to 10 bit 4:2:2 when the camera writes the file as 8 bit 4:2:0 does anything more than just create a larger file. The only new data being added is 1's and 0's, no new information that pertains to color space.

Think of it this way.

You shoot a video of the sky on a beautiful day. The camera can record 254 distinct shades of blue (working hypothetically here people). You get the file into the editor and you decide you want to make the sky a bit more blue.

If you are working in 8-bit space, you make your changes, but since you've modified the colors, they may not be smooth and contiguous colors any more as the program is guessing which shades you really meant. So you render out and the sky has banding of colors and isn't smooth.

So you start over, but work in 10bit. Now you can define 1023 shades of blue. You make your changes and now when you render out the sky is more blue, and everything is perfectly smooth.

The goes for ANY color correction, white balance, or anything else including just changing contrast and brightness. In 8 bit you have 254 shades from white to black. In 10bit you have 1023. You can be a lot more subtle in the shadows, you can be a lot more subtle with the skin tones, with the highlights, etc.

So when you plan on doing this kind of work, you set up your camera to make sure none of the shadow information is lost, and none of the highlight information is lost. When you get to post, you can stretch that image back out and get smooth information back out if you work in 10bit.

Not sure if this makes sense to you or not.

For a super simplified example, buy a box of 8 crayons and draw a picture. Then go get a box of 100 crayons and do the same. The subtlety you can get with more colors and shades at your disposal is what makes the difference.

 

[maarek]

So you start over, but work in 10bit.

Good color correction programs work in 32-bit anyway so there's really no use in converting the material to prores quality wise. It will only degrade the image slightly but allow for faster editing.

For example After Effects will convert everything to 32-bit 4:4:4 (when working in a 32-bit project) so it's no use if the file is already converted from 8-bit 4:2:0 to 10-bit 4:2:2.

 

[carlone]

Think of it this way.

In 8 bit you have 254 shades from white to black. In 10bit you have 1023. You can be a lot more subtle in the shadows, you can be a lot more subtle with the skin tones, with the highlights, etc.

Thanks Perrone for digging in an explaining this, I get the concept behind it.

 

[jonE5]

what would i convert files to for editing in vegas 9?

 

[Matt Gottshalk]

Good color correction programs work in 32-bit anyway so there's really no use in converting the material to prores quality wise. It will only degrade the image slightly but allow for faster editing.

That is completely wrong in both theory and practice.

 

[PaPa]

so in cineform, to get the 10 bit higher quality and easier time editing with less crashes lol, what settings do you guys recommend? I don't mind the large file size, just want to work with the best the camera has to offer with smooth workflow.

 

[Stephen Mick]

That is completely wrong in both theory and practice.

C'mon, Matt. If 8-bit and 10-bit are good, 32-bit must be better, right?

 

[ChuckS]

so in cineform, to get the 10 bit higher quality and easier time editing with less crashes lol, what settings do you guys recommend? I don't mind the large file size, just want to work with the best the camera has to offer with smooth workflow.

There's a real possibility that the reason your getting the crashes is because of the larger file size depending on how fast our filesystem is.

The debate ten years ago was 8 bit versus 10 bit, things have changed a lot since then.

The 7D captures in 8 bit highly compressed, if you convert to Cineform 8 bit any loss in image quality will be imperceptible. So I'd recommend working in editorial 8-bit, if you need to do anything in After Effects or a different color correction application you can choose to work internally at 32-bit float and still render out an 10-bit Cineform file. Since Cineform uses wavelet compression there really is no good reason for converting to 10-bit immediately, the quality will not suffer if you do it later in the process.

Your workflow largely depends on your deliverable. If your delivering HD or Blu-ray this workflow will work well. If your outputting to film then you should choose a 10 bit codec which will require significantly more [expensive] filesystem and compute performance. Also, if you don't own an Arri Laser recorder and your using a service, talk to them before shooting and they will advise you how to proceed. That will save everyone time and money.

 

[PerroneFord]

None of the current Cineform offerings is 8 bit.

 

[PDR]

Good color correction programs work in 32-bit anyway so there's really no use in converting the material to prores quality wise. It will only degrade the image slightly but allow for faster editing.

For example After Effects will convert everything to 32-bit 4:4:4 (when working in a 32-bit project) so it's no use if the file is already converted from 8-bit 4:2:0 to 10-bit 4:2:2.

That is completely wrong in both theory and practice.

Care to explain ?

 

[PaPa]

There's a real possibility that the reason your getting the crashes is because of the larger file size depending on how fast our filesystem is.

The debate ten years ago was 8 bit versus 10 bit, things have changed a lot since then.

The 7D captures in 8 bit highly compressed, if you convert to Cineform 8 bit any loss in image quality will be imperceptible. So I'd recommend working in editorial 8-bit, if you need to do anything in After Effects or a different color correction application you can choose to work internally at 32-bit float and still render out an 10-bit Cineform file. Since Cineform uses wavelet compression there really is no good reason for converting to 10-bit immediately, the quality will not suffer if you do it later in the process.

Your workflow largely depends on your deliverable. If your delivering HD or Blu-ray this workflow will work well. If your outputting to film then you should choose a 10 bit codec which will require significantly more [expensive] filesystem and compute performance. Also, if you don't own an Arri Laser recorder and your using a service, talk to them before shooting and they will advise you how to proceed. That will save everyone time and money.

im not using cineform now, im saying i don't mind if the file size of the 7D clips become larger, as long as my editor can play back the footage in real time before even having to do a first render.

so my question is, from the mov file, what should i use to convert to ( guessing cineform for PC ) and what settings are recommended?

 

[Jester2138]

im not using cineform now, im saying i don't mind if the file size of the 7D clips become larger, as long as my editor can play back the footage in real time before even having to do a first render.

so my question is, from the mov file, what should i use to convert to ( guessing cineform for PC ) and what settings are recommended?

DnxHD is what Avatar (and others) used. And it's free.

 

[Postmaster]

I use always uncompressed till I output.
And yeah, it takes some TBs of storage but I don´t care.

I always have the best possible quality during my workflow and it´s easy on the CPU - that means editing is smooth, fast and realtime.

Frank

 

[Chris Adams]

Ok so if you convert to ProRes LT there is loss in quality, granted its minimal, but it is there. Do you reconnect your original h.264 files after you finish editing or just use the LT files throughout?

 

[Box]

Ok so if you convert to ProRes LT there is loss in quality, granted its minimal, but it is there. Do you reconnect your original h.264 files after you finish editing or just use the LT files throughout?

I'd like to know about this as well. :kali:

 

[MutePrint]

I recently used ProRes 422 (compressor v3.1) for a short documentary project. The file sizes are absolutely ludicrous- I ended up with over a terabyte of data for a 20 minute short (granted I shot a LOT of footage). Each file was 4-5 times bigger than the raw clips. Since then I've tried using the lower quality version, which has resulted in somewhat manageable file sizes that stutter frequently during playback. My system is a six month old 2.8 core2duo MBP with 4mb of DDR3, so I really can't believe it's not watchable with anything but the full blown ProRes.

How does everyone deal with these insane ProRes file sizes? Do I really need a more powerful system? Also, I'm running FCP Studio 2, is "ProRes LT" only available in later versions?

 

[ChuckS]

im not using cineform now, im saying i don't mind if the file size of the 7D clips become larger, as long as my editor can play back the footage in real time before even having to do a first render.

so my question is, from the mov file, what should i use to convert to ( guessing cineform for PC ) and what settings are recommended?

Unfortunately I have switched to the dark side and only use a MAC. I used Cineform when it first came out and it worked very well, based on my experience with their support and the quality of their early product I'd recommend using Cineform. I also think you can evaluate them for free.

Regarding the best settings you should get the best settings from someone who is currently using Cineform.

 

[ChuckS]

Ok so if you convert to ProRes LT there is loss in quality, granted its minimal, but it is there. Do you reconnect your original h.264 files after you finish editing or just use the LT files throughout?

The difference in quality is imperceptible so no I do not reconnect to the H.264 source footage. It is not necessary. Just use the LT files throughout post and then encode to whatever deliverable you need.

 

[Green Hornet]

From David At Cineform, he says...:

Cineform Low is a higher datarate than ProRes Proxy
Cineform Medium is a lower datarate than ProResLT
Cineform High = ProResSQ
Cineform Filmscan1 = ProResHQ
Cineform Filmscan2 = ProRes doesn't have setting that high
Cineform 444 not equal to ProRes444 -- CineForm 444 is RGB based, ProRES is always YUV
Cineform 4444 not equal to ProRes4444 -- RGBA vs YUVA
Cineform RAW = N/A

 

[PaPa]

DnxHD is what Avatar (and others) used. And it's free.

Is this just for Avid?