Is there anything on Canon's Horizon?

G

Gene Sung

Veteran
Is there anything new on Canon's horizon?

I like my 7D quite a bit, but am hoping that a new camera comes soon that will address the Aliasing so I can shoot 720 and deep focus shots. For me, the 60D was a HUGE disappointment since it was basically the 4th iteration of 5D style DSLR video, yet it still suffers from the exact same issues (bad aliasing).

I heard that a new 7D isn't due till 2012, so the new 5D III is kind of my only hope for less Aliasing. But the problem is, I film surfing sometimes and I like the 1.6x crop (for far away shots). Plus I have 3 APS-C lenses that costed quite a bit.

I haven't been following the rumors much lately, but does anyone know if the 5D will finally have alias free video? When is there going to be the next 7D? I've heard Canon's product cycle is about 3 years. If that's true, a new 7D won't be out till 2012

Is Canon going to compete with the AF-100? Canon has been very silent about a 2nd of DSLRs and an AF-100 style camera; while Panasonic and Sony seem to be releasing some good stuff. Panasonic just seems to move at a faster pace. To me, Canon's silence is becoming deafening.

I would switch to Panasonic, but I have too many Canon lenses (plus I LOVE the Canon fast zooms) and for me the 4/3rd 2x crop is just past my preferred threshold. Even with an EOS adapter for Panny, the focal lengths for the Canon Zooms are not ideal (ie 17-55 just isn't quite wide enough on a GH2). It's also nice to use lenses natively, without adapters IMO.

Sorry for this rant, but man... I just want a less aliased Canon camera. I would have gladly bought a 60D if it just addressed this problem.

Is there any hope on the horizon? Am I the only one frustrated by this?
 
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Man, just think about the Nikon shooters waiting for (what eventually was) the D7000... ouch!!!

I'm with you on all of the above... just got to keep on with what I can afford. Where's my Scarlet, anyway? And weren't we all supposed to have jet packs by now??
 
gene_can_sing said:
Is there anything new on Canon's horizon?

I like my 7D quite a bit, but am hoping that a new camera comes soon that will address the Aliasing so I can shoot 720 and deep focus shots. For me, the 60D was a HUGE disappointment since it was basically the 4th iteration of 5D style DSLR video, yet it still suffers from the exact same issues (bad aliasing).

I heard that a new 7D isn't due till 2012, so the new 5D III is kind of my only hope for less Aliasing. But the problem is, I film surfing sometimes and I like the 1.6x crop (for far away shots). Plus I have 3 APS-C lenses that costed quite a bit.

I haven't been following the rumors much lately, but does anyone know if the 5D will finally have alias free video? When is there going to be the next 7D? I've heard Canon's product cycle is about 3 years. If that's true, a new 7D won't be out till 2012

Is Canon going to compete with the AF-100? Canon has been very silent about a 2nd of DSLRs and an AF-100 style camera; while Panasonic and Sony seem to be releasing some good stuff. Panasonic just seems to move at a faster pace. To me, Canon's silence is becoming deafening.

I would switch to Panasonic, but I have too many Canon lenses (plus I LOVE the Canon fast zooms) and for me the 4/3rd 2x crop is just past my preferred threshold. Even with an EOS adapter for Panny, the focal lengths for the Canon Zooms are not ideal (ie 17-55 just isn't quite wide enough on a GH2). It's also nice to use lenses natively, without adapters IMO.

Sorry for this rant, but man... I just want a less aliased Canon camera. I would have gladly bought a 60D if it just addressed this problem.

Is there any hope on the horizon? Am I the only one frustrated by this?
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Name me 1 HD camera that can give you quality like the Canon t2i at it's price? Canon has done an AMAZING job with these DSLRs, hence the reason why they are so popular. No perfect camera exist and within this price range you are asking for too much. You just need to find a way to shoot to avoid certain shots and use different angles to help minimize certain problems. Now if you want that excellent amazing camera you better open up your wallet and go and spend $20k+

No way in the world anyone can complain about the price/quality of these Dslrs and honestly they take this aliasing way out of proportion....

Finally the 60d is a $999 camera with a swivel lcd screen, manual audio , kelvin temperatures and shooting in amazing HD quality..... Some people will never be happy, me personally I love these cameras and many of us would never be shooting HD without them.
 
Canon can DEFINITELY push themselves. Asking for less aliasing is NOT asking for that much, even if the camera is $800. The Aliasing is a major issue. The 60D is the 4th iteration of the video DSLRs and it has the exact same issues? Come on... that is ridiculous. All I'm saying is that Panny is pushing themselves a bit more than Canon. And yes, overall I do prefer Canon (better low light, less crop, much better native lenses and fast zooms) but there is nothing wrong with chiding a company a bit to make their product better.

Just the fact that Canon keeps releasing cameras with the same major flaw, when everyone and their mother has told them about the issue over and over is something to be worried about.

The Aliasing is my one issue (I love the camera besides that) and yes, I do know all the ways to shot and live with it, but I think most people would prefer to have the freedom to shoot how they want.

I'm just getting a bit worried because the aliasing issue keeps coming up with each of Canon's subsequent releases, and Canon has just been very quiet (unlike Panny) and mum with their future products. I've invested a LOT in canon lenses (around 7K), and I just want to see them do better.

I'm just losing hope a bit in Canon, and hope we don't suffer the same fate at the Nikon shooters.
 
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I assume by "panny" you mean Panasonic? (I'm going to avoid the cutesy abbreviations if that's okay - are we going to start calling Canon Canny and a tripod a trippy? Let's just use real names.)

With regard to Panasonic "pushing themselves", they have a history of making professional and semi-professional video cameras to a degree that Canon does not, so they're already ahead.



gene_can_sing said:
Canon can DEFINITELY push themselves. Asking for less aliasing is NOT asking for that much, even if the camera is $800. The Aliasing is a major issue. The 60D is the 4th iteration of the video DSLRs and it has the exact same issues? Come on... that is ridiculous. All I'm saying is that Panny is pushing themselves a bit more than Canon. And yes, overall I do prefer Canon (better low light, less crop, much better native lenses and fast zooms) but there is nothing wrong with chiding a company a bit to make their product better.

Just the fact that Canon keeps releasing cameras with the same major flaw, when everyone and their mother has told them about the issue over and over is something to be worried about.

The Aliasing is my one issue (I love the camera besides that) and yes, I do know all the ways to shot and live with it, but I think most people would prefer to have the freedom to shoot how they want.

I'm just getting a bit worried because the aliasing issue keeps coming up with each of Canon's subsequent releases, and Canon has just been very quiet (unlike Panny) and mum with their future products. I've invested a LOT in canon lenses (around 7K), and I just want to see them do better.

I'm just losing hope a bit in Canon, and hope we don't suffer the same fate at the Nikon shooters.
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gene_can_sing said:
Canon can DEFINITELY push themselves. Asking for less aliasing is NOT asking for that much, even if the camera is $800. The Aliasing is a major issue. The 60D is the 4th iteration of the video DSLRs and it has the exact same issues? Come on... that is ridiculous. All I'm saying is that Panny is pushing themselves a bit more than Canon. And yes, overall I do prefer Canon (better low light, less crop, much better native lenses and fast zooms) but there is nothing wrong with chiding a company a bit to make their product better.

Just the fact that Canon keeps releasing cameras with the same major flaw, when everyone and their mother has told them about the issue over and over is something to be worried about.

The Aliasing is my one issue (I love the camera besides that) and yes, I do know all the ways to shot and live with it, but I think most people would prefer to have the freedom to shoot how they want.

I'm just getting a bit worried because the aliasing issue keeps coming up with each of Canon's subsequent releases, and Canon has just been very quiet (unlike Panny) and mum with their future products. I've invested a LOT in canon lenses (around 7K), and I just want to see them do better.

I'm just losing hope a bit in Canon, and hope we don't suffer the same fate at the Nikon shooters.
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$800? More like $700 and some change brand new http://www.bhphotovideo.com/bnh/controller/home?O=productlist.jsp&A=cart&Q=add&sku=675617&is=REG&q=1

Tell me 1 camera that gives us this quality at this price? Also how is "panny" pushing the envelope more than Canon? Do you mean the Af100 which cost close to $5k , because if you do that is not an even close to fair comparison. Finally in case you did not know or are just to hard headed to understand there is a reason for the aliasing. You are using an 18mp photography camera to shoot less than 2mp resolution video..... That kind of down sampling is one of the major reasons.


Know your gear, learn your gear, Master your gear


 
adanac said:
I assume by "panny" you mean Panasonic? (I'm going to avoid the cutesy abbreviations if that's okay - are we going to start calling Canon Canny and a tripod a trippy? Let's just use real names.)
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I don't know what your deal is with people abbreviating words or using shorthand, but Panny has been the shorthand name for Panasonic cameras for longer than this forum has been around. Who cares whether it is part of the filmmaking vernacular, which by the way is just as silly:

Tripod - Sticks
Footage - Footy
650w light - Tweenie
Flat apple boxes - Pancakes
A square frame with a sheet of duvateen - Flop

That's just the sh*t that's coming to mind right now.


Back to topic:

Canon will continue to take advantage of the HDSLR market. From what I remember a DVXuser saying after talking to a Canon employee, Canon is opening a motion DSLR division, which will cater to the prosumer and professional market of video DSLR users. Then we will see the things we want to see in these cameras.

You also have to remember that the 60D was not a generational or revolutionary leap, it was just to secure another particular place in the market:

T2i (02/2010): Cheapest, 18 MP, APS-C, 1080p24 video, 1-stop ISO increments, 1 DIGIC IV Chip, 3.7 fps.
60D (09/2010): Halfway between T2i and 7D in cost, 18 MP, APS-C, 1080p24 video, 1/3-stop ISO increments, articulated screen, 1 DIGIC IV Chip, 5.3 fps.
7D (09/2009): Pricier, 18 MP, 1080p24 video, APS-C, 1/3-stop ISO increments, 2 DIGIC IV Chips, 8 fps, HD monitoring, weather-sealed body, great still and video package rolled into one.
5DII (09/2008): Even more expensive, 21 MP, Full-frame, 1080p24 video (after upgrade), 1/3-stop ISO increments, 1 DIGIC IV Chip, 3.9 fps, patriarch of the HDSLR revolution.
1DIV (10/2009): Most expensive Canon DSLR at more than double the cost of a 5DII, 16 MP, APS-H, 1080p24 video, 1/3-stop ISO increments, 2 DIGIC IV Chips, 10 fps, low-light capability beyond all reason (ISO H3: 102,400).

60D slides right into place as a good entry-level professional tool and as a great prosumer camera for casual SLR shooters.

Canon is a business, and businesses are in it to make money (how's that for platitude!), so they are more concerned with placing the right product in the right price range to grab onto a market. With the interest professional video shooters have shown, they will only continue to suck us dry with the cameras we've been waiting for, as they should.
 
gene_can_sing said:
Just the fact that Canon keeps releasing cameras with the same major flaw, when everyone and their mother has told them about the issue over and over is something to be worried about.

I'm just losing hope a bit in Canon, and hope we don't suffer the same fate at the Nikon shooters.
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To everyone who posts comments like this, I ask "what percentage of Nikon and Canon's DSLR customers are buying bodies primarily for video?" - I have yet to get an answer from any forum expert. If it a very low percentage, then I wouldn't expect a major manufacturer to jump through a bunch of hoops and dedicate a bunch of R&D to things like firmware fixes.

Want proof? Nikon's made it pretty clear that they just don't care about configuring products for the video market - that doesn't mean they're jerks, but it tells me we're not a big part of the bottom line. Canon certainly hasn't dedicated a team of coders to firmware solutions - it took an open source community a ton of man-hours to reverse engineer what existed - to get to the point Canon would start upgrading from. "Everyone and their mother" complaining about video codecs and HDMI out? In reality that's the few hundred people that populate these filmmaking forums. How do we compare to everyone from the pros to the soccer moms that shoot on the t2i - 5D range of bodies?

We're really not a screaming mob of consumers - we're a very small slice of a giant market.

DSLR video was an afterthought; not part of a long-term marketing goal to take over the indie film community. Plenty of Canon reps have expressed complete shock at the fact that mass market TV spots and motion pictures are being shot with their gear. Companies of that size can't turn on a dime, and they do a lot of analysis before spending significant resources on R&D and manufacturing, with plenty of levels of management to convince.

If the video you can get from a 5D (or a T2i) isn't enough for you, go buy a Red (the Scarlet saga being a great reminder of the kind of resources tech products require). If you're losing faith in Canon or Nikon, get a used DVX or HVX on eBay and remind yourself what you like about DSLRs.

I'd love to pull amazing keys for all the ideas in my head. Canon's codec just can't pull it off to my standards. I can wait to get a bunch of "next level" gear and not shoot anything; I can design my shots to hide Canon's weaknesses yet still be compelling and cool; or I can rethink everything and design shots that lean on Canon's strengths. But I'm sure not going to get PO'd at a company that gave me really pretty 1080p for under $800.
 
Michael Carter,
Totally agree with you to an extent. I am pretty confident that the Hdslr has put a good dent into the prosumer video camera (Xh a1, ex1, HVX, HMC, ext). I didnt feel this way until I looked at some of the 2000+ videos on the diritos competition and saw that 1 out of 5 videos were shot with a DSLR. Just look at our market place and look at all the HVX and Ex1 ads. Most say "Perfected the 7d I bought and this thing just sits on the shelf, make offer" All I wish was a Firmware update to atlest make it equal to the 5d mkII; AUDIO!

Jon
 
Gene, I know you've been having this internal debate for a while and I actually understand you. If I were dealing with a decision right now, it would definitely flop between the MKII and GH-1 w/Hack. For me, the middle ground that is the 7D and T2i just doesn't offer as much as either two. GH-1 w/Hack is obviously of better image quality than any of them (proof is in the pudding, turn a blind eye or not) but the MKii's real-estate is really fun to play with, so what do you do?

Tough decision, man.
 
still image sharpness and aliasing are inherently linked; these are stills cameras primarily, so there will likely ALWAYS be aliasing, especially with the way they bin/skip pixels.
 
The thing about it, is the OP is correct. In all reality, Canon has put out 14 cameras that all do the same thing with minimal price differences because of 5$ features like "built in level" and "white balance options", and lastly, "manual audio", and they are simply noodling people around. The thing is, aliasing is a tough thing to correct, but there's plenty to pack into a brand new camera like the 60D that would TRULY make people buy it and would probably be easy to manufacture:

2K aspect ratio.
Audio Level Monitoring (tons of people complaining about that)
Easier menus - picture folders, adjusting picture style settings while looking at a live view or picture example, live view histograms (and possibly a histogram that makes it a bit easier to read?), more picture style/effect options, ect ect. Stuff to fill the money up.
Full resolution 1080p/2K crop modes - this would get rid of aliasing.
60 FPS 2K/1080P option.
If anything, like a tiny Raw video mode? 480P even, like the crop mode? If the camera couldn't handle full resolution raw, I'm sure people would love 480 raw all the same. Heck, even 360P if the camera'd have serious trouble?? SOMETHING TO HAVE AN EXCUSE TO MAKE A NEW CAMERA.

I mean, with all these new cameras, it's almost like they are making fun of us. The T2i was the perfect camera for the beginner market, and all it needed were updates. I'm almost positive manual audio/level could have been a simple software update if Canon wanted. The 7D was a bit better for the mid-pro market and it could be updated all the same. MKII for the serious full-frame pros. Seemed like the money was rolling in with all these. Why a 60D? It's weird, and they put in just enough of a few tiny features to make us hungry for a new camera.
 
Ben_B said:
gh1.
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They still sell those??? Nah but in all honesty I was referring to a Video Camera and not any photography camera. GH1 is a great camera and for many their first HD Camera, but outside of these photography cameras you really can't find HD video like this in a "video camera" for this price. Yes we all want it to be better, but they really have no competition to make it better. Also I will disagree with Kohl statement on saying the Gh13 is the best looking footage..... Personally I do not like that super high res look..... Someone cannot deem an opinion as fact as yes the GH13 is sharper, but maybe not the most pleasing footage to many peoples eyes.
 
life4eva said:
.... Personally I do not like that super high res look..... Someone cannot deem an opinion as fact as yes the GH13 is sharper, but maybe not the most pleasing footage to many peoples eyes...
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You can always take away resolution, but you can't add it. Starting with the GH13 lets you do more.
 
Talking about the GH"13" is a bit pointless since currant-ish models are un-hackable, and I have a gut feeling anyone with one won't be selling it if it's that good.

I'm using my 550D to learn big-sensor video while waiting to see if Canon do improve the video o/p. Remember these aren't "video cams" they are stills cams that do a bit of video, so asking for video-specific features is daft.
If I had the budget I'd be considering the AF101 but as I haven't . . . . .
Dave
 
The really interesting things I've heard involve Canon's involvement with filmmakers and the fact they're still a little jaw-dropped about it all; the guy who developed the chip breaking into tears at skywalker ranch when he saw 5D footage on the big screen; the 2nd unit guys from "24" saying they're getting footage closer to "right off the chip" with Canon's help and that Canon has "surprises" coming for DSLR filmmakers.

I suppose Nikon could surprise us down the line, but if Canon develops a filmmaker-friendly, sub-$3k camera that takes existing glass and has pro audio features, I won't be shocked. If they've come this far by basically hacking stills-market gear, and their market research says there's another DVX-level revolution coming that they can jumpstart? It's certainly possible. But we may be approaching a dead end - or at least the speed bumps before the brick wall - of DSLR video progress, as far as aliasing and moving data from chip-to-card.

Look at Snapper's list a few posts up - all that "2k" stuff he wants when there's already chip heating problems with 1080, big image problems at 60p, and the problems that come with downsizing huge data at 24 or more fps - my guess is this will require a new take on the chip itself, or a lot of hacks to an existing video chip.

All of that comes down to one simple factor - how many people are projected to purchase such a camera and how does that translate to ROI and market share/creation of a new market? It's about short and long term ROI. They're a business, not santa clause.
 
Well you will be waiting a while since Canon says they won't be releasing the 5D Mkiii for a good while because of the success of the 5D Mkii.

If you really need these issues fixing fast then just buy a Panasonic Af100.
 
m43user said:
You can always take away resolution, but you can't add it. Starting with the GH13 lets you do more.
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Says who? Oh that's your opinion rite..... Since when was film sharp? That's more video like which I why I do not own a Gh13 as well as many others. I mean if the GH13 was the best camera why don't we all sell ours and buy it.......

Please stop posting your opinion as fact


That is all
 
Here is an unsubstantiated rumor that I hope will restore your faith in Canon:

http://www.canonrumors.com/2010/11/video-camera-rumors-cr1/

I shoot rock climbing with my T2i and have had good results on a tripod when I've slowed the pan down to an extremely slow drag and been meticulous hand-held. It has made me more aware of the erratic shooting style I've gotten away with using video cameras, and I've become a smoother, more patient shooter when using a dedicated video camera.
 
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