Walter, how is this even remotely problem-solving, when my original question was never answered and, in fact, no remotely affordable suggestion has been made? It still remains that I have a pile of equipment that, to me, costs a small fortune and is borderline useless, as the only way I can get a clean voice recording is to place the microphone a couple of centimetres from my mouth.
Is the DR-100 a better match to the NTG-2 than the H4n?
- Thread starter Tobias F
- Start date
Tobias, there's a stark reality in audio that, at some point, you have to invest a little to get a little. Yes, there's a bottom line, or a minimal investment, to get gear that performs up to the right standards, but good audio is not cheap.
You have a mic that can provide great results for the money if used with the right pre-amp, and you have a recorder that isn't the greatest but can provide good results if the pre-amps are (mostly) taken out of the chain. Considering what you already have, an external pre-amp is probably the least expensive option. That said, the right pre-amp (read: one that will be a wise, long-term investment) may not be available on the cheap. You did mention the ART USB Pre as a solution under £300, but the suggestion of the Sound Devices MM-1 is not only a solid recommendation but is also under £300.
Because the Zoom's inputs cannot take line-level input, you'll need to get a line>mic pad as well, but those are inexpensive and easy to find. Still, this will allow you to trim the Zoom's inputs down, minimizing the gain added by its own pre-amps and thus minimizing added noise. It should give you a much cleaner recording with proper levels.
You have a mic that can provide great results for the money if used with the right pre-amp, and you have a recorder that isn't the greatest but can provide good results if the pre-amps are (mostly) taken out of the chain. Considering what you already have, an external pre-amp is probably the least expensive option. That said, the right pre-amp (read: one that will be a wise, long-term investment) may not be available on the cheap. You did mention the ART USB Pre as a solution under £300, but the suggestion of the Sound Devices MM-1 is not only a solid recommendation but is also under £300.
Because the Zoom's inputs cannot take line-level input, you'll need to get a line>mic pad as well, but those are inexpensive and easy to find. Still, this will allow you to trim the Zoom's inputs down, minimizing the gain added by its own pre-amps and thus minimizing added noise. It should give you a much cleaner recording with proper levels.
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Hi Alex,
I did pick up the Art USB Duo thing, and I can't actually get it to phantom power without a clicking noise, so it is out of the question.
I would still prefer to have fewer devices than mic+pre+recorder, and at present I have £150 worth of mic, £200 worth of recorder and a proposed £300 worth of preamp to add to this. Would there not be a better arrangement for around £650, as in possibly a more sensitive microphone and a recorder that has decent input preamps?
I did pick up the Art USB Duo thing, and I can't actually get it to phantom power without a clicking noise, so it is out of the question.
I would still prefer to have fewer devices than mic+pre+recorder, and at present I have £150 worth of mic, £200 worth of recorder and a proposed £300 worth of preamp to add to this. Would there not be a better arrangement for around £650, as in possibly a more sensitive microphone and a recorder that has decent input preamps?
sonofaresiii
Well-known member
No.
Walter Hergt
Active member
It is problem-solving even if it is not what you want to hear or if it does not work for your budget. I think that thru this thread there has been a lot of patient and thoughtful advice delivered.
And I empathize as I have an H4n and was recently given a NTG-2 from a friend for a good price. I also have a serious budget cap. Running up against all the issues you are as well as having wondered in the dark about impedance issues, a different recorder, etc. I would also like to only have a mic and a recorder and not more boxes and batteries.
This thread and others have confirmed for me that while a different recorder would help (take a look at the review of the dr-100mkii over at taperssection.com), it likely won't be future-proof like a good preamp would be. I've taken to thinking about this level of portable recorder like I think about a mid-level camera body: I want to invest whenever I can in long-term, high-quality audio components just as I invest in the best lens I can knowing that the camera body/recorder, while both critical, are also the biggest points of compromise and therefore changing every few years. A good mic and a good preamp you could have for a decade or more and make any current or future recorder (whether on- or off-camera) sound great.
Maybe it is worth it for us to sell the H4n for half of what a DR-100mkii. Maybe I'll get more than the $160 difference in sound improvement. Perhaps that is an acceptable compromise for now. I know that $160 means a lot to me personally and I also understand that making decisions in the quest for pro-sounding audio on the basis of $160 is folly, unfortunately.
I am also speculating (with some certainty) that an MM-1 in front of the H4n will sound a lot better than the the Rode into a DR-100.
Wish there was a magic bullet...
And I empathize as I have an H4n and was recently given a NTG-2 from a friend for a good price. I also have a serious budget cap. Running up against all the issues you are as well as having wondered in the dark about impedance issues, a different recorder, etc. I would also like to only have a mic and a recorder and not more boxes and batteries.
This thread and others have confirmed for me that while a different recorder would help (take a look at the review of the dr-100mkii over at taperssection.com), it likely won't be future-proof like a good preamp would be. I've taken to thinking about this level of portable recorder like I think about a mid-level camera body: I want to invest whenever I can in long-term, high-quality audio components just as I invest in the best lens I can knowing that the camera body/recorder, while both critical, are also the biggest points of compromise and therefore changing every few years. A good mic and a good preamp you could have for a decade or more and make any current or future recorder (whether on- or off-camera) sound great.
Maybe it is worth it for us to sell the H4n for half of what a DR-100mkii. Maybe I'll get more than the $160 difference in sound improvement. Perhaps that is an acceptable compromise for now. I know that $160 means a lot to me personally and I also understand that making decisions in the quest for pro-sounding audio on the basis of $160 is folly, unfortunately.
I am also speculating (with some certainty) that an MM-1 in front of the H4n will sound a lot better than the the Rode into a DR-100.
Wish there was a magic bullet...
David W. Jones
Veteran
Tobias, in my mind your question has been answered a number of times, the lower priced Sound Devices solutions presented by other posters, but for some reason you have ignored their advice and persisted.
If this is a hobby to you, then maybe it's time to accept the quality level you are at until you have more money to play with.
If this is a business, and audio is half of your product, then maybe it's time to invest in the professional products that will deliver the quality you expect.
All the Best!
Dave
If this is a hobby to you, then maybe it's time to accept the quality level you are at until you have more money to play with.
If this is a business, and audio is half of your product, then maybe it's time to invest in the professional products that will deliver the quality you expect.
All the Best!
Dave
So, you've bounced around between making what you have work, to spending under £300 (which you did against advice here), now to considering £650.
All the answers are in front of you, and you might want to read the Audio Recorder Sticky, which details several options for any budget. That said, you're now talking about spending enough to get a recorder that will drive your NTG-2 just fine. If you're willing to put that much money into it, and you're looking at just over $1000 USD, you're in the realm of some great, mid-budget gear (Fostex FR2-LE comes to mind). You're also in the realm of something pretty flippin' sweet like the Sound Devices MixPre-D, rather than a new recorder, with some headroom left over for a nice bag to hold both the recorder and mixer. Having a bag to organize cuts down on the headache of keeping up with multiple devices, even though the H4n (like any hand-held recorder) is not a bag-friendly design.
Walter, I am glad that there are other people stuck in my same corner. Or rather, glad to have company, and sorry you are sharing this.
David, I'm sorry about my irritation with the discussion. It was more down to the fact that I had asked a direct question, to which I received what seemed like many tech rants of people supporting one or another device, rather than a simple 'yes' or 'no'. To answer your question, I consider myself a professional photographer and filmmaker, however since I've not had any working rights (my personal shame) for the past four and a half years, I am unable to actually make any money from what I do, and am stuck to a limited budget; and thus the camera has not even contemplated paying for itself.
(talking of sound, it is dead weird having someone singing upstairs, as though it were karaoke, but oddly with no background music)
So, the issue remains that I have invested in the H4n to try and replace the sound card that I had on my Sony A1e (which had a DOF adapter) to work with my hacked GH1, and I am presently stuck with the inability to record much of any audio. Ho hum.
So if I shift the H4n, Art USB and another pile of unused gear, then I should be able to aim for something a wee bit more expensive, and hence why I was wondering whether moving up to the value of a decent preamp and the resale value of my H4n might fetch a single device that would satisfy my needs. Though I must admit that, at this point, I am tempted to look into used DAT units - the bees knees of a few years back - to tide over until I could splash out on something serious.
Alex, the Fostex does seem to come in at a decent price, even over here. Cheaper than the MM1+H4n. And you are confident that it would do the job with my NTG-2? It is a real pity that there are no physical shops with people who know what they are talking about any more, and the option to try plugging a mic into a recorder to see how they work together.
David, I'm sorry about my irritation with the discussion. It was more down to the fact that I had asked a direct question, to which I received what seemed like many tech rants of people supporting one or another device, rather than a simple 'yes' or 'no'. To answer your question, I consider myself a professional photographer and filmmaker, however since I've not had any working rights (my personal shame) for the past four and a half years, I am unable to actually make any money from what I do, and am stuck to a limited budget; and thus the camera has not even contemplated paying for itself.
(talking of sound, it is dead weird having someone singing upstairs, as though it were karaoke, but oddly with no background music)
So, the issue remains that I have invested in the H4n to try and replace the sound card that I had on my Sony A1e (which had a DOF adapter) to work with my hacked GH1, and I am presently stuck with the inability to record much of any audio. Ho hum.
So if I shift the H4n, Art USB and another pile of unused gear, then I should be able to aim for something a wee bit more expensive, and hence why I was wondering whether moving up to the value of a decent preamp and the resale value of my H4n might fetch a single device that would satisfy my needs. Though I must admit that, at this point, I am tempted to look into used DAT units - the bees knees of a few years back - to tide over until I could splash out on something serious.
Alex, the Fostex does seem to come in at a decent price, even over here. Cheaper than the MM1+H4n. And you are confident that it would do the job with my NTG-2? It is a real pity that there are no physical shops with people who know what they are talking about any more, and the option to try plugging a mic into a recorder to see how they work together.
David W. Jones
Veteran
At this point... it appears that the limiting factor in your current equipment equation is the microphone preamps on your H4n.
In my mind the logical upgrade path without replacing your current gear, would be a used Sound Devices MM1, or higher priced 2 channel MixPre, along with vari-pads to match the impedance of your H4n inputs.
Also, if you have not made any money from this business venture in 4 1/2 years then it's a hobby, and I don't know that I would worry about dumping more cash I didn't have into it.
In my mind the logical upgrade path without replacing your current gear, would be a used Sound Devices MM1, or higher priced 2 channel MixPre, along with vari-pads to match the impedance of your H4n inputs.
Also, if you have not made any money from this business venture in 4 1/2 years then it's a hobby, and I don't know that I would worry about dumping more cash I didn't have into it.
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David W. Jones
Veteran
Sorry, I didn't say you were an amateur, and didn't mean to offend.
It's just over here, if a business does not show a profit for X amount of time, you are considered a hobby and no longer allowed to make those business deductions.
It's just over here, if a business does not show a profit for X amount of time, you are considered a hobby and no longer allowed to make those business deductions.
No worries. And yes, I think that would be a general definition of professional versus hobbyist, though I believe that the legal definition may also be based on whether the majority of one's income is made from a given activity? But to simplify things, think of me as a starving artist, or something along those lines, though my plight is not presently a conscious choice.
Your studio looks rather wonderful. For some reason I was unable to watch your showreel (on OSX Lion).
Some of me is here.
Your studio looks rather wonderful. For some reason I was unable to watch your showreel (on OSX Lion).
Some of me is here.
I would say as a side note that for me an excellent two box solution is the Sony PCM-D50 (which can be had for $300-$350 used and a Denecke or Rolls passive XLR adapter provideing phantom power), alternatively you could use the Sony M10 if you don't care about built in mics. They both have excellent noise floors and pre-amps. However, the perfect all in one solution currently on it's way appears to me to be the new Fostex RC302. Certainly going to have great specs and is as much field recorder as mixer. Further in conjunction with a DSLR it will enable you to only have to push one button on it's box to start both video and sound. This is also great because it means that you are effectively synced. This would be a great investment for the future.
Walter Hergt
Active member
Interesting, yoclay, and confirming for me.
Tobias, I'm sure you have seen this thread, which is why I've been running my Rode into the H4n's 3.5mm:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-testing-with-H4N-NTG-2-with-detailed-results
Also, here is a thread that informed me more than anything about what I might expect from the DR-100mkii and the NTG-2: http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=37679
Pages 5-6 provide recordings of the Rode into the mkii using phantom power (as well as examples with a Mix Pre in the loop - awesome) and it seems to be a size-able improvement. But not enough for me to be content for the shorter-term while I work toward a long-term system. Better, but not great.
Thus, I took jsc's advice (confirmed by yoclay) and picked up a PCM-D50 which has a hugely improved noise floor vs. the H4n - the mkii sits between. I rigorously searched the interweb and found one used, great shape, 30-day return policy, good price.
I'll continue to run it into the mini-jack (obviously) so I lose some of the NTG's sensitivity and "fullness" but I have a system that is two pieces, more sensitive, more powerful, better sounding with great battery-life. When I am booming the mic regularly, using lavs, etc. I can incorporate a Juicedlink or other product for XLR/phantom and combined will have a great system that is still considered inexpensive for what we are trying to do.
Tobias, I'm sure you have seen this thread, which is why I've been running my Rode into the H4n's 3.5mm:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthrea...-testing-with-H4N-NTG-2-with-detailed-results
Also, here is a thread that informed me more than anything about what I might expect from the DR-100mkii and the NTG-2: http://www.cinema5d.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=37679
Pages 5-6 provide recordings of the Rode into the mkii using phantom power (as well as examples with a Mix Pre in the loop - awesome) and it seems to be a size-able improvement. But not enough for me to be content for the shorter-term while I work toward a long-term system. Better, but not great.
Thus, I took jsc's advice (confirmed by yoclay) and picked up a PCM-D50 which has a hugely improved noise floor vs. the H4n - the mkii sits between. I rigorously searched the interweb and found one used, great shape, 30-day return policy, good price.
I'll continue to run it into the mini-jack (obviously) so I lose some of the NTG's sensitivity and "fullness" but I have a system that is two pieces, more sensitive, more powerful, better sounding with great battery-life. When I am booming the mic regularly, using lavs, etc. I can incorporate a Juicedlink or other product for XLR/phantom and combined will have a great system that is still considered inexpensive for what we are trying to do.