Is the 5d Mark II really worth the price difference from 7D?

Don't quite understand what you are saying, but it's not any harder to shoot with 5D than 7D. 5D will have all the same DOF options as 7D and more.
 
have you owned both of them at the same time ? - Iv had em both since they were released

I obviously missed something - like the 5d image going black for a week when you press record with a montor

Both Canons are a total PITA under pressure, the 5 is great fun though

enjoy the rest of the thread - Im out to play with my FS100 :)

And to answer the OPs question

"is the 5 worth the extra money"

yep is it is - in the dark or with a 14mm, or a 50 1.2 or a T/S lens its awesome, unique, and amazing

but for
" doing freelance jobs focusing strictly on video including music videos, weddings, commercials and other events. "

Id have neither but if I had to have one Id have the 7 and a T2i as backup for 5d money

S
 
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morgan_moore said:
Its virtually impossible to hande the DOF on the 5

Sure the DOF of the 5 is wonderful for filming flowers on a sunday but when you are shooting someones wedding or dont want to say 'we will need to go again' to the director of your music video you will want the 7

and you will want it with an 800px monitor from SmallHD or others (which rules out a T2i)
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:thumbsup:
 
Wow! Great discussion guys! I will definitely take everything that everyone has said into account. Hans do u think u could find a video that demonstrates the concept of the z axis? I read your post but I'm having a hard time visualizing. I noticed some say that the 5d performs better in low light. Let's say for instance I wanted to shoot scenes for a music video in a club. Clubs usually aren't well lit, but with better noise performance would it perform well enough to negate the necessity of external lighting and still get a good shot? I know it depends on how dark the club is but generally speaking?
 
M1CEtro said:
Wow! Great discussion guys! I will definitely take everything that everyone has said into account. Hans do u think u could find a video that demonstrates the concept of the z axis? I read your post but I'm having a hard time visualizing. I noticed some say that the 5d performs better in low light. Let's say for instance I wanted to shoot scenes for a music video in a club. Clubs usually aren't well lit, but with better noise performance would it perform well enough to negate the necessity of external lighting and still get a good shot? I know it depends on how dark the club is but generally speaking?
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You get about an extra stop of light with the 5D II due to the iso improvement. I shoot at 1250 and it's pretty darn clean. With my 60D, I try to keep it 640 or under.

In regard to the Z-axis stuff, remember than to achieve the same field of view with a 5D II to a 60D, you have to divide or multiply the focal length by 1.6. The 50 will always require an almost double telephoto length to get the same field of view.

I'm going to show you an extreme telephoto close up and an extreme wide angle close up to help visualize this. These examples are very extreme simply to highlight what it is I am referencing.

these aren't my photos, just stuff I find on the web:

A 200mm head shot:

http://www.flickr.com/photos/kevin32832/2754874075/

vs a 16mm headshot:

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_hL5wRA2-kIM/SwPmrmRVSjI/AAAAAAAAECU/Ss-jaw46aI8/s1600/Bighead.jpg

See how at 200mm, the background is much much closer to the foreground, and her facial features are almost compressed together? Her face is flatter and aesthetically pleasing? With the 16mm shot, her noes and glasses looks way further away than her ears, chest, and even mouth and the background is further away from the foreground... which makes creates a very distorted effect. Z-axis stretching.

The difference between these two photos is 12.5x focal length. The 5D II basically creates a 1.6x telephoto perspective at the same field of view.
 
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That z-axis stretching is a total red herring. If you frame up an absolutely identically-framed shot on a 7D, and also on a 5D, from the same distance, you will find that the perspective is rendered exactly the same.

The distortion and compression comes from how far away the camera is from the subject, not from what focal length the lens is.

Use a 50mm on the 7D, and an 80mm on the 5D, and use the exact same tripod position, and shoot a portrait. You'll find that the compression/expansion/distortion is absolutely identical between them.
 
Barry_Green said:
That z-axis stretching is a total red herring. If you frame up an absolutely identically-framed shot on a 7D, and also on a 5D, from the same distance, you will find that the perspective is rendered exactly the same.

The distortion and compression comes from how far away the camera is from the subject, not from what focal length the lens is.

Use a 50mm on the 7D, and an 80mm on the 5D, and use the exact same tripod position, and shoot a portrait. You'll find that the compression/expansion/distortion is absolutely identical between them.
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The distance is a constant with a 50mm on a 7D and an 80mm on a 5D. Yes, the distance you are from the subject is a significant variable when it comes to Z axis perspective, but when when the same distance and field of view is maintained with these respective sensor sizes, the bigger sensor will have a more telephoto look because the variable now becomes the focal length.

This is one of the reasons why in the photography world, many people choose the original 5D (only 12MP) over the 7D (18MP) for portrait work.

I have a 60D and a 5D II, so let me do a visual illustration for you guys. Anyone can write anything, so I expect no one to take this post seriously before I add in some photo tests.
 
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IMHO the 5D is a more practical option because you can recreate the same image of the 7D (noise, DoF, and FoV) by changing your lens a few settings. The ability to shoot amazing pictures in low light also gives a +1 to the 5D. Not to mention being able to create space with the full frame sensor when you really don't have any, and the fact that the 7D overheats like no one's business. I have never had a 5D overheat on me and I have had a 7D overheat on me less than 10 minutes into a shoot.

However, the 7D does have a few things in it's arsenal. For example, it can shoot 720/60p (using which I have shot an entire commercial). It is also cheaper than the 5D, which makes it more appealing to people on a budget.

Taking all that into account, as someone said earlier, you would never use either of these cameras as your "a" camera on a large scale project. That said, your "a" camera would most likely be doing the majority of your overcranking, ergo the 5D would be a more suitable option if you are going to be using it as a "b" cam, and you have a couple of extra dollars to spare.
 
HansSteinert said:
The distance is a constant with a 50mm on a 7D and an 80mm on a 5D. Yes, the distance you are from the subject is a significant variable when it comes to Z axis perspective, but when when the same distance and field of view is maintained with these respective sensor sizes, the bigger sensor will have a more telephoto look because the variable now becomes the focal length.
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Actually Barry is 100 percent correct, the shots will look virtually identical if the 5D 80mm lens is stopped down to achieve the same DOF, otherwise at the same aperture the 5D image will have less DOF. ( less of the image in focus )

...To take this even further, if you shoot a portrait with any camera using two different focal length lenses ( lets say a 7D with a 24mm lens and a 200mm lens ) from EXACTLY the same distance and EXACTLY the same F-stop, then enlarge the image from the 24mm lens to match the magnification of the 200mm lens ( roughly 8.3 times larger ) the images will be identical. Obviously there will be a big difference in sharpness and grain from the huge magnification difference, but otherwise the images will be a perfect match.

When I used to shoot film with 8x10 inch Sinar view-cameras, an ultra wide lens for this camera is a 165mm Super-Angulon, which is roughly the same as Field of View as an 18mm lens on a Full Frame camera.

Z-axis perspective is entirely controlled by the distance from the subject to the camera, and has nothing to do with the focal-length of the lens used.
 
Alright then. My tests seem to confirm what you guys are saying.

I need to go ask photographers what the benefit of larger formats are, because you can get more than enough shallow DOF on an APS-C sensor with a fast lens. And in a studio setting, I can't imagine low light capability would be a reason.

So, the main advantage of a 5D II is the low light capability, which is twice as good. I would say that a 60D is a best value, unless you need monitor out for focus, which case get the 7D.

Good lenses and a really good tripod/head are nearly a necessity, so please make room for that in your budget. Get a nice smooth head... it's worth it. Sacthler CineDSLR or Vinten Vision Blue.
 
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HansSteinert said:
I need to go ask photographers what the benefit of larger formats are, because you can get more than enough shallow DOF on an APS-C sensor with a fast lens. And in a studio setting, I can't imagine low light capability would be a reason.
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The main benefits of a camera with a larger film/sensor size are:

1- Shallower depth-of-field when shooting at the same F-Stop. My Pansonic GH-2 with the Voightlander 25mm f/0.95 lens wide-open has about the same depth-of-field as a 50mm f/2.0 lens on a Canon 5D MK2. So the larger 5D MK2 format makes it easier to shoot images with a thin slice of focus.

2- More detail and better color in the image. A larger the film/sensor area captures images with less noise and better color reproduction.

3- Better low-light sensitivity from the digital sensor because the photo-sites on the sensor are often larger than the photo-sites on a smaller format digital sensor. ( this does not apply to film )

...I think the APS-C and Micro 4/3 formats are ideal for video work because they are a pretty good match to the cinematography 35mm ( 3-perf ) and Super 35mm ( 4-perf ) motion-picture film formats. The larger Full Frame 35mm format ( i.e. Canon 5D MK2 ) is fantastic for still photography, but the depth-of-field from this format is often too shallow for film or video work unless you are prepared to stop your lens down by an additional 1.5 - 2.0 F-stops to acheive the same depth-of-field as the APS-C ( Canon 7D ) or Micro 4/3 ( Panasonic GH-2 ) cameras. So if you are shooting in a low-light situation at f/2.0 with the GH-2, you will need to shoot at f/4.0 using the 5D MK2 to obtain the same depth-of-field. This is one the main reasons why last years final episode of the TV House MD was shot with the Canon 5D MK2, because the episode was all about being trapped under rubble and the claustrophobic feeling this creates. By shooting with super-shallow depth-of-field, the DOP was able to create this type of feeling for the episode.
 
Come on, 50mm and 80 wont be exactly the same, out of focus lights in bokeh will be larger on 80mm.
Just compare this with 25mm on gh1 and 50mm on 5D, its not the same and because of this difference i prefere 5D and telephoto perspective on wider FOV.

http://vimeo.com/20763866
 
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50mm on a 7d will be exactly the same as 80mm on the 5d in terms of perspective. If you want the bokeh identical you can do that too but you need to open up the 7d by 1.5 stops to get it there.

If you do so, the shots will be absolutely indistinguishable.
 
bwwd said:
Come on, 50mm and 80 wont be exactly the same, out of focus lights in bokeh will be larger on 80mm.
Just compare this with 25mm on gh1 and 50mm on 5D, its not the same and because of this difference i prefere 5D and telephoto perspective on wider FOV.

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i dont like the 5D look here.her face looks elongated.
 
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