Is the 5d Mark II really worth the price difference from 7D?

M

M1CEtro

Active member
I know the 5d vs 7d has been done to death. But in my situation, I will be doing freelance jobs focusing strictly on video including music videos, weddings, commercials and other events. I have been researching both cameras and understand the differences in the specs such as 5d's full frame, all of that good stuff. But I'd like to hear from those that have worked with both cameras with heavier focus on the video. I have been searching through a lot of different test videos from the two cameras. Every source I have read clearly states that the 5d is the superior for video. But in the test videos I have been watching on youtube, I can't say that I see such a DRAMATIC difference that justifies that extra 900ish dollars. This could simply be because the resolution of the videos on youtube doesn't allow enough details to clearly see a difference. I would say that I like the 5d's look a little better, but I want to really know HOW much better it is and if its worth the extra money? The local camera stores by me are out of mark IIs for awhile so I cannot do my own tests myself (I planned on taking a CF card to the store and recording video on both and bringing the footage back home for analysis). Can anyone with experience with the video of these two cameras comment on this? I am capable of purchasing either camera, I will have to save for a few months for the mark II if thats the decision I go with. But I just want to hear others inputs to see how much better it really is?

Thanks guys
 
Youtube is a terrible place to judge video quality, honestly. It makes Canon DSLRs and Red cameras look similar... and they really aren't.

Anyways, in regard to your question, it depends. 5D has a cleaner look and better iso performance; less noise. It has a superior (IMO) Z axis perspective. Both have practically the same real resolution. The 7D has slightly less rolling shutter. The 7D's sensor matches 35mm film, whereas the 5D is closer to Imax... which might be important to note if you're using it as a B-cam with film.

5D has shallower DOF, but this is honestly a moot point because with a fast lens, the 7D will get you all the bokeh you could ever want. Since 5D has better iso performance, getting very broad depth of field is just as easy with the 5D as with the 7D.

If you want to shoot ultra telephoto, you have to spend extra on lenses with the 5D.

If you build your lenses around the 5D II, upgrading to the 5DIII (if it has better video capabilities... which I think will happen) will be a smooth transition.

7D has 720p.60FPS, but it looks like s**t so I don't even consider it a worthy benefit.

7D has 1080i out... which helps a lot if you use an external monitor. 7D overheats more, too.

I have a Canon 60D and a 5D II. Both get the job done, but if I could only have one, I would go with the 5D II because of its unique Z axis perspective and its cleaner image. Helps with grading and helps in low light when you need to bump up the iso.
 
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Thanks for the input Hans, I have a few questions about some terms you used.
can you elaborate more on what the Z axis perspective is?
What is a B-cam for film?
Can you describe a little more what you mean by a "cleaner" image? Does this mean less noise/grain in low light? Can you tell the differences in regular light?
Any idea when the mark 3 will be announced?
 
the theatre... the 5dii was used as the crash cam on many of the action sequences in "Captain America" and "Red Tails" and "Iron Man 2"
 
thanks alex but i mean is there somewhere i can compare footage from both on the same subject? or maybe download the files?
 
Get the 7D. I've been using the 7D and 5DMKII for over a few years now and unless you plan on having a dedicated focus puller, I'd rule out the 5D.

I'm not so sure about the claim that the 5DMKII is better than the 7D for video. If there is a difference, I'd say it's negligible, and I've shot plenty of 2 camera jobs with 7D and 5DMKII together.

As for the 60fps looking like s**t, I haven't had that experience. I shot a BUNCH of 60fps stuff that was projected on 12-18 foot screens and it looked fine.

Z axis perspective? :shocked:
 
M1CEtro said:
Thanks for the input Hans, I have a few questions about some terms you used.
can you elaborate more on what the Z axis perspective is?
What is a B-cam for film?
Can you describe a little more what you mean by a "cleaner" image? Does this mean less noise/grain in low light? Can you tell the differences in regular light?
Any idea when the mark 3 will be announced?
Click to expand...

The sensor is significantly larger, therefore you will need more telephoto lenses to achieve the same field of view. A 30mm on a 7D will give the same FOV as a 50mm on a 5D II. Essentially, at any field of view, the 5D II will give a more compressed Z-axis look than a 7D. I like this because a compressed Z-axis is very appealing for close ups, and it allows me to shoot ultra wide without having excessive Z axis stretching (something I've never been a fan of).

By B camera, I mean your 5D or 7D is being used on the same production as a Red or film camera for action shots. Thus your DSLR footage will be cut with the other camera.

Yes, cleaner means less digital noise. If the image is properly exposed at 160 or 320 iso, you won't notice a difference unless you're shooting flat and are going to be color grading intensively.

Your guess is as good as mine for the 5D III, and it's possible that the 5D III isn't any better than the 5D II for video. But I doubt that, and rumors are that there will be an announcement at the end of August. Rumors being the keyword.
 
Chris Santucci said:
Get the 7D. I've been using the 7D and 5DMKII for over a few years now and unless you plan on having a dedicated focus puller, I'd rule out the 5D.
Click to expand...

With all due respect, that's not really accurate. The 5D II has about 1 stop depth of field difference than a 7D at the same field of view and distance. For instance, a 5D II with a 50mm f2 will look like a 30mm f1.4 on a 7D in terms of depth of field. In the same regard, the 5D II has a little over 1 stop improvement for iso. In other words, the 5D II at double the iso as the 7D will have the same noise. Therefore, if you want to shoot at the exact same DOF with a 5D II as with a 7D, all you have to do is double the iso and close down your aperture by a stop, and you've got the same DOF, same exposure, and same digital noise.

For instance, want the same DOF as a 7D 30mm at f2? Say you were shooting at iso 320 with your 7D? Take a 5D II, Throw on a 50mm lens so you have the same FOV, crank the iso to 640, turn the aperture to f2.8, and now you have the same DOF, the same exposure, with the same amount of digital noise.

For that reason, if you can manage a 7D's depth of field, you can manage a 5D II's the exact same.

Chris Santucci said:
As for the 60fps looking like s**t, I haven't had that experience. I shot a BUNCH of 60fps stuff that was projected on 12-18 foot screens and it looked fine.
Click to expand...

I got excessive aliasing that I didn't consider to be usable professionally when I tried. Significantly worse than regular 1080p mode, and I'm not too anal about aliasing (hence me being a DSLR user). But this was just bad. Perhaps it was just a crappy location that exaggerated these DSLR's weak spots.

Chris Santucci said:
Z axis perspective? :shocked:
Click to expand...

Absolutely. You ever noticed how ultra wide lenses, like an 11-16mm Tokina, stretch the Z axis for perspective, especially when close to your subject? Ever noticed that with telephoto lenses, stuff in the background looks much much much closer to stuff in the foreground in terms of perspective comparatively?

This is why we use telephoto lenses for portrait shots rather than taking a wider lens and simply move closer. Telephoto compresses the Z space, which flatters the subject's face.

The 5D II and Imax essentially shifts the image to an almost double telephoto perspective while maintaining the exact same field of view. Going around on my Glidecam with my 5D II at 17-24mm looks fantastic because I'm shooting ultra wide (which hides my shakiness on the glidecam thus making it look smooth), yet the perspective doesn't convey an exaggerated distortion. The pro steadicam guys with loads of talent and top of the line steadicam gear are so good that they can fly a Red with a 17-30mm (half of the field of view as a 5D II at 17-30mm respectively) and still get perfect results. They do this because you only want to have an ultra stretched Z axis from an 11-16mm range for special occasions, not for your average moving shot. I can't do that with my glidecam, so it's nice being able to get the same perspective with double the field of view so my shakiness is significantly less noticeable.

The 7D is a great camera, but there is no reason to buy it over the 60D or a t3i for video mode unless you're going to be using an external monitor, or you're going to be shooting in an amazon and need 100% weather sealing. If you don't need those two things, save yourself 600 bucks and treat yourself to a 60D or t3i which overheat less and have an articulated screen which helps a ton when getting weird angles. Same sensor between the 60D/T3i and 7D, same downscaling method, same video image quality. Same photo quality too for that matter.
 
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Get the 7d

(im the second person to say that who has owned and worked for cash with both)

Its virtually impossible to hande the DOF on the 5

Sure the DOF of the 5 is wonderful for filming flowers on a sunday but when you are shooting someones wedding or dont want to say 'we will need to go again' to the director of your music video you will want the 7

and you will want it with an 800px monitor from SmallHD or others (which rules out a T2i)

--

The 5d has a bit more lowlight, and is fun with something like a 14 - it is the perfect B camera but the 7 is the daily workhorse

Of course I would suggest a close look at the sony FS100 - ive swapped my 7 for that (and kept the 5 for funky bcam)

Once you properly budget your sound workarounds you might find the FS is good value

S
 
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morgan_moore said:
Get the 7d

(im the second person to say that who has owned and worked for cash with both)

Its virtually impossible to hande the DOF on the 5
Click to expand...

Just double the iso and bring the aperture down a stop. The noise will be the same as the 7D at half that iso. I think people forget that the 5D II has a 1.1 stop iso improvement over the 7D, and are scared to crank it up. Thus they settle with a low f stop and naturally have a hard time controlling it. It would be the same way with a 7D at 1 stop lower than your comfort zone.

F4-F5.6 is my sweet spot on the 5D II and controlling that isn't hard handheld, and on my 60D f2.8-f4 is where I'm usually at.
 
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indeed you stop down to get contollable focus and have to up ISO to compensate losing the noise per ISO advantage compared to the 7

the only advantage of the 5 is cost of lenses, 24-105, 20 2.8 and 50 1.4, 70-200F4 being bargains and supremely suited to the camera

My 5d is a wonderful B cam and was a terrible A cam

S
 
morgan_moore said:
indeed you stop down to get contollable focus and have to up ISO to compensate losing the noise per ISO advantage compared to the 7

the only advantage of the 5 is cost of lenses, 24-105, 20 2.8 and 50 1.4, 70-200F4 being bargains and supremely suited to the camera

My 5d is a wonderful B cam and was a terrible A cam

S
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When you double the iso to compensate, you now have the exact same image quality as the 7D in terms of noise and the exact same DOF. This is not "losing the noise per iso advantage", this is utilizing that advantage. The 5D is capable of producing the exact same DOF as the 7D if you need it, which is why I don't understand the DOF argument and why it doesn't make sense to call the 5DII a terrible A cam on that basis.

If you need HD output to a monitor, than sure I understand. Same with if you need true 100% weather sealing. But in terms of DOF, there is no valid distinction between the two because the 5D is capable of completely emulating the 7D's DOF with no difference in noise, and the 5D is simultaneously capable of producing a shallower image than the 7D with half the noise.
 
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You are correct about DOF vs Noise

Of course if you are lit the 7d can give you a little more DOF

My main concern when shooting for clients has been sustaining focus for which I find a monitor essential

Shooting for fun with a higher allowance for chucking stuff out, the 5d is a lot more fun and easier to lens

S
 
morgan_moore said:
You are correct about DOF vs Noise

Of course if you are lit the 7d can give you a little more DOF

My main concern when shooting for clients has been sustaining focus for which I find a monitor essential

Shooting for fun with a higher allowance for chucking stuff out, the 5d is a lot more fun and easier to lens

S
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Even if you are lit, the 5D II is always capable of grabbing the same depth of field. Same concept: double the iso and close the iris 1 stop, even out in the sun.

The 7D does offer 1080i out, so if 1080i on a monitor is a necessity for maintaining focus for clients, then I understand. The 5D II, 60D, and rebels are only 480i, so you would find it equally difficult to focus with all those cameras compared to a 7D + monitor.

That's why I mentioned in my original post: if you need 1080i out on an external monitor, than the 7D is the way to go. But if you aren't using a monitor, than I would go with the 5D II or a 60D/T3i.

I suppose I misinterpreted your first post. I thought your post about focus was due to the 5D's sensor size, not about the lack of 1080i out.
 
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In daily use I find it to be a combination of both

Dont forget that too small an aperture creates softness due to defraction

Due to the crappy mini HDMi on the 7d frankly Im glad to be using neither under client pressure now

Factoring post time savings, lack of moiree, and additional reliability I just think the FS100 is where it is at when shooting for cash

S
 
morgan_moore said:
In daily use I find it to be a combination of both

Dont forget that too small an aperture creates softness due to defraction

Due to the crappy mini HDMi on the 7d frankly Im glad to be using neither under client pressure now

Factoring post time savings, lack of moiree, and additional reliability I just think the FS100 is where it is at when shooting for cash

S
Click to expand...

The diffraction really isn't an issue for DSLR video work. It's very noticeable when taking pictures because of the high resolution, but we're only resolving like 1 to 1.5MP worth of information in video mode, so it's not really an issue for us. Even at f22 there's more than 1.5MP of unique information being resolved from the lens.

Some people shoot deep depth of field video with DSLR and blame the soft picture on diffraction, but really that's because of the codec having to deal with more information since everything is in focus, and that is what is actually making it look soft. Magic Lantern + increasing bitrate can help this to an extent.

Yeah, FS100 is a great bet if you have the money.
 
morgan_moore said:
Get the 7d

(im the second person to say that who has owned and worked for cash with both)

Its virtually impossible to hande the DOF on the 5

Sure the DOF of the 5 is wonderful for filming flowers on a sunday but when you are shooting someones wedding or dont want to say 'we will need to go again' to the director of your music video you will want the 7
Click to expand...
How about learning first how the camera works and how DOF is archieved before saying stupid things like that. You can get the exact same DOF with 5D as you get with 7D. Noise is also the same since 5D is way cleaner (1600 ~ 600).
 
Mate Ive been happy shootin my 5d at F4 for years

the OP does describe the large sensor as 'good stuff' so may be looking to open up a little more - which is certainly a challenge for anything but statics

or unless he uses high level tech and people like Hurlburt and Charters do

S
 
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