FS5: Is it worth it to hold out for Shogun Inferno, or just invest in 7Q+ instead?

basspig said:
V. 8.2 firmware released yesterday.

May not install in the normal power on, so holding the power button for 10 seconds may be necessary to 'force' firmware update with this package. You may see an Atom OS error followed by "please wait". Update took about 1 minute.
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I went straight for the 8.21, but had the same experience updating my Shogun: no auto update on power on; used your method of holding the power button pressed longer - there was some error warning, but it finalized OK and the Info now say Firmware Version is 8.21.

basspig said:
CDNG does not get S-Log curve.
Click to expand...

Well - how do you know that? Judging by the look of the final CDNG picture? Because I'm still unclear about "adding" S-log curve to RAW SDI signal from my XDCA when recording to DNxHR on my Shogun - there must be one of S-log curves applied in-camera to get the RAW signal in the first place, but is it the Shogun which applies it to linear RAW prior to encoding DNxHR? I asked Atomoss Support, they never answered that...

Also, with the 8.21 fw I have a bug: with HDMI signal, the AtomHDR works as it used to, but with the SDI signal (no matter if I record to CDNG, or DNxHR) - the icons in the AtomHDR menu page (camera, gamma and gamut) started acting on me. The "camera" is set to Sony correctly, but it cannot be toggled like it used to. Same with the gamma icon - it's stuck at S-log2 (no matter whether I have S-log2 or S-log3 in camera). The gamut icon toggles what it says, but not the actual display - it stays the same no matter what I chose (S-gamut, S-gamut3, etc.) Is it just me, or do you find the same behavior?

Piotr
 
OK, so I did some testing comparing CDNG clips from the Shogun, shot with my FS7 with S-log2/S-Gamut and S-log3/S-Gamut3.Cine; there is no difference whatsoever. Also, in the Camera Section of Resolve settings, I'm using Rec709/Linear as the input color space/gamma and this gives very nice results. Is this a proper approach? Sorry for lame questions, but I had no previous experience with RAW :)

If this is the case, I now understand that the right way for monitoring on the Shogun is not AtomHDR, but simply Rec709 mode - perhaps that's why those icons in the AtomHDR menu don't work as expected. But their behavior can be considered buggy, anyway - if they have no meaning by design, they should all be inactive and grayed out... And - most importantly - even when encoding to Prores or DNxHR, we cannot use S-log3 in the current firmware:(

Piotr
 
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Thanks man - let's hope for a new fw fixing this bug soon. BTW - is it possible to down-grade the firmware on the Shogun? I installed the 8.21 just to test CDNG (nice colors, low noise I must admit), but for practical reasons encoding to DNxHR with S-log3 is much more important to me!

Piotr

PS. Steven - while I agree with you that this bug prevents us from monitoring in AtomHDR with S-log3 curve / S-Gamut3.Cine applied (as sort of an "M-LUT" alternative) - are you 100% positive it also prevents the Shogun from actually encoding RAW SDI into Prores or DNxHR with S-Log3 applied (i.e. "baked-in")? I'm not so sure of that, as nobody - not even Atomos Support - was able to answer my question whether it's the FS-7 setting (one of the S-log curves and Cine EI mode are essential for activating the RAW SDI output), or Shogun itself, which is responsible for that...

Are you saying that whichever curve we set in AtommHDR menu page for monitoring is also automatically baked in into Prores/DNxHR encoding?
 
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Correct, Mark - HDMI works without this glitch. Like Steven, I also opened a Support ticket with Metabones on it.

But please try to explain to me what I'm asking about in the "PS" section of my post above. I'm so frustrated that the otherwise great piece of equipment the Shogun is, has so poorly written User Manual :( Also their Support is very slow in answering. And I hate every situation where I'm not 100% sure I understand properly how my hardware works...... TIA

Piotr
 
Hi Piotr,

I always set my camera to slog3 and record internally on the Fs5 in 1080p and in 4k Appleprores on the Inferno. Before the 8.21 upgrade when I compared the internal vs Inferno footage there was only a very small difference, just some contrast difference. But since 8.21, the footage on the Inferno look like it's Slog2 as the look is very different to the internal footage of the Fs5 in Slog3.
For me the Inferno records a different image if you set it to Slog2 or Slog3, but then I'm not a Atomos technician...

Steven
 
Thanks Steven - let's hope some "Atomos technician" will explain it to us, after all :)

Now that we cannot even switch the Inferno from S-log2 to S-log3, I cannot even confirm whether what you are saying is also valid with the FS7 RAW SDI signal. I did compare CDNG recordings from Inferno, though - and it looks the same no matter which S-log curve is set on camera (but then, CDNG doesn't apply a log curve at all, it seems)...

Piotr
 
Not trying to hijack this thread at all but I have a simple question for Inferno & Odyssey users/owners - do either one of these recorders allow the file name of the camera's internal recording to follow out to the external recording as an identical file name?

I have a Red Epic Dragon camera and although only the Weapon series records internal Red RAW & ProRes with identical file names for matching back in post. An external recorder that allows this metadata to travel via SDI or HDMI cable is what I am searching for because without identical file names, a matchback in post for a color online session would be extremely difficult and time consuming.

I own a Pix E5 4K recorder, but it doesn't do this so I can only use it when I external record from my A7S Mark 1 which doesn't record 4K internally but outputs it on the HDMI.
 
ZumaDog said:
Not trying to hijack this thread at all but I have a simple question for Inferno & Odyssey users/owners - do either one of these recorders allow the file name of the camera's internal recording to follow out to the external recording as an identical file name?

I have a Red Epic Dragon camera and although only the Weapon series records internal Red RAW & ProRes with identical file names for matching back in post. An external recorder that allows this metadata to travel via SDI or HDMI cable is what I am searching for because without identical file names, a matchback in post for a color online session would be extremely difficult and time consuming.

I own a Pix E5 4K recorder, but it doesn't do this so I can only use it when I external record from my A7S Mark 1 which doesn't record 4K internally but outputs it on the HDMI.
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I think this question is worth a new thread...
 
When you're recording RAW, there is no S-Log. The confusion stems from the fact that Sony menu requires you to set CINE EI and that forces S-Log. But the signal going into the Shogun is linear RAW. When the files are imported to Premiere or Resolve, a REC709 curve gets applied automatically. In Resolve, you can determine what curve to use. Premiere doesn't seem to allow changing curve applied to RAW data.
 
That RAW CDNG on inferno is linear (no S-log baked in) is obvious, Mark. The thing is that with the 8.21 fw, Atomos screwed up the AtomHDR menu page on the Shogun (in the way I described above, and only when using RAW SDI input from FS7/XDCA). This is just an aesthetic problem when encoding CDNG, but becomes and issue when encoding to Prores/DNxHR as you no longer can select the proper S-Log 2 or 3 , or Gamut (You're stuck with S-log2 while I personally use S-log3 almost exclusively).

But still the most important question is whether the bug only screws AtomHDR monitoring, or also actual Prores/DNxHR encoding by limiting the curve applied to it to S-log2 only. You do have XDCA - RAW SDI output, so please try to help us establish whether this is the case indeed - this would also answer the more general question I'm still very uncomfortable about: is it the Shogun which bakes-in the same curve which is used for HDR monitoring, or is it determined by which of the 2 S-log curves is used in-camera... TIA

Piotr
 
Hey guys,

So i posted this on the Atomos FB group also.
But I've recently become aware of this hell that Atomos has bestowed upon me.
I have no idea what the Shogun Inferno is applying to my image, but it's not SLOG2, SGamut, which is what is selected in camera.
Either Pro-Res or DNXHR, I get the same result.

I'm very concerned about this as I have this hugely expensive recorder which apparently won't record SLOG in 4K, which is sole reason I bought the FS5 and Inferno.

I split the image between camera and shogun. To the left is Shogun, to the right is FS5 XAVC.

tE6RNII.jpg
 
Yeah... so it does seem I'm not the only one not having grasped the scheme of Shogun compressed encoding (CDNG seems more obvious). I asked this question in my 2 tickets with Atomos Support over the last month or so, but none has been answered. I also tried the Sony Community Forum, with similar results... Of course one might say that - as long as the Shogun-encoded Prores or DNxHR pictures are nice, and grade well in Resolve (which they do) - it's not that important which exactly gamut/gamma they are, but for best grading results one must know it if he/she is to apply the most appropriate settings for RCM (which I tend to use most), ACES or LUTs...

Piotr
 
Airwolf said:
Hey guys,

So i posted this on the Atomos FB group also.
But I've recently become aware of this hell that Atomos has bestowed upon me.
I have no idea what the Shogun Inferno is applying to my image, but it's not SLOG2, SGamut, which is what is selected in camera.
Either Pro-Res or DNXHR, I get the same result.

I'm very concerned about this as I have this hugely expensive recorder which apparently won't record SLOG in 4K, which is sole reason I bought the FS5 and Inferno.

I split the image between camera and shogun. To the left is Shogun, to the right is FS5 XAVC.

tE6RNII.jpg
Click to expand...

The only way my in camera footage and Prores Inferno look the same in Davinci Resolve is if I choose Video levels for the XAVCH and Data Levels for the Prores. At that point they look identical. If untouched and left at AUTO, it seems Resolve makes the Prores Video level, and increases the contrast.
 
Good find, Josh - the difference might indeed stem from inconsistent levels interpretation and not unpredictable Log curve application. But this doesn't change the fact that - with not all of us being color scientists - Atomos should put more effort in the documentation they provide....

Piotr
 
This seems like Resolve is automatically applying a LUT, did you check that? How are the files looking if you preview then in the Finder?
 
This isn't resolve. That screencap is from premiere. It looks the same in resolve.
Something is f'ed at the camera or shogun end.
 
Just got an answer from Atomos amd they acknowledge the problem of the missing slog3 and it will be fixed in the next update.
 
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