FS5: Is it worth it to hold out for Shogun Inferno, or just invest in 7Q+ instead?

I just double-checked this... to make sure I wasn't incorrect. And of course, this in no way confirms or disputes anything, but with my FS7 in EI mode, shooting UHD at 23.97 - and same being output via the hdmi to my PIX E5 recorder - the recorder says the signal is 10 bit. Using my 6300 - and feeding hdmi to same recorder - it always says 8 bit - no matter what size.
 
markfpv said:
I just double-checked this... to make sure I wasn't incorrect. And of course, this in no way confirms or disputes anything, but with my FS7 in EI mode, shooting UHD at 23.97 - and same being output via the hdmi to my PIX E5 recorder - the recorder says the signal is 10 bit. Using my 6300 - and feeding hdmi to same recorder - it always says 8 bit - no matter what size.
Click to expand...

That is helpful information and objective fact. Thanks for sharing. Now we know that the HDMI out is logical 10-bit output.

The only question remains: is the information really 10 bits deep, or is it 8-bit information padded to a 10-bit stream?
 
I thought the FS7 output 10bit 422 UHD (perhaps even true 4K) up to at least 30fps via HDMI and then dropped to 8bit 422 for higher frame rates (perhaps even 60fps). Otherwise why would anyone spend the extra money for an external recorder when the internal XAVC is 10bit 422?

Not sure about the SDI but I thought it was limited to 1080 output in order to force you to buy the extension unit if you wanted / needed UHD/4K SDI out.
 
digitalinnovations said:
I thought the FS7 output 10bit 422 UHD (perhaps even true 4K) up to at least 30fps via HDMI and then dropped to 8bit 422 for higher frame rates (perhaps even 60fps). Otherwise why would anyone spend the extra money for an external recorder when the internal XAVC is 10bit 422?

Not sure about the SDI but I thought it was limited to 1080 output in order to force you to buy the extension unit if you wanted / needed UHD/4K SDI out.
Click to expand...
The external recorders mentioned in the title of this thread
(Inferno and Odyssey 7Q) use the SDI, (as opposed to the
HDMI.). They are actually recording either raw video or they
are taking the raw video stream and 'compressing' it to ProRes. This is
quite a bit different from other recorders and allows for much higher
quality video.
 
markfpv said:
I just double-checked this... to make sure I wasn't incorrect. And of course, this in no way confirms or disputes anything, but with my FS7 in EI mode, shooting UHD at 23.97 - and same being output via the hdmi to my PIX E5 recorder - the recorder says the signal is 10 bit. Using my 6300 - and feeding hdmi to same recorder - it always says 8 bit - no matter what size.
Click to expand...
Compare file sizes between the FS7 and A6300 both recorded to the same recorder maybe?
 
New upgrade for the Shogun Inferno 8.1!
I ordered one on the 7th of December and still waiting for it... so they must be successful or out of stock here in Europe.

Features:
• High frame rates for Sony HD/2K Raw 100/120/200/240p for recording and playback
• Hybrid Log/Gamma (HLG) in and out can now be accessed from the Monitor page
• Further improvements to 3:2 pulldown functionality

Bug Fixes:
• Sony FS7 DCI 4Kp50/60 locking improved via HDMI
• Waveform monitor added for all 2K modes
• DCI 4Kp60 synchronized audio playback improvements at DCI 4Kp30
• Time lapse functionality improved
• Occasional red ash frame issue improved while recording, this did not affect the recorded
footage

https://www.atomos.com/shogun-inferno
http://firmware.atomos.com/TXT/SGI/Shogun_Inferno_Release_Notes_8.1.pdf
 
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The 8.1 firmware adds DCI 4K 60P capability. So I learned that the HDMI port on the FS7 is NOT limited to UHD at 60P, as I had thought.
 
Great. It IS however limited to 8-bit, 4:2:0 in framerates higher that 30 (UHD and 4K, of course). And this is an official info from Sony Prime Support.

Piotr
 
HDMI 2.x can do 4:2:2 8 bit at 60P 4K DCI, but Sony may have crippled the port. It looks okay, but I need to do a color resolution test to really determine that.
 
I stand corrected, Mark - wasn't specific enough: of course the 444 12bit applies to UHD. The HDMI standards evolve following the progress in UHD TV, and as such, their specs cover HD and UHD. $K DCI is a cinema standard, so even though you can force a Premium UHD TV (like my Samsung) to switch from its native 3840x2160p to 4096x2160p, the full bit depth and chroma sampling only applies to DCI 4K UP TO 30p (and BTW, there is no such thing as 4K DCI @50/60p within DCI standard, even though our FS7 can record it).

Piotr
 
Yup, HDMI is largely intended for consumer use, but it can handle 9% more pixels than UHD without a lot of tradeoffs. DCI is just a pixel count, a number. There's nothing magical about it. Pushing 9% more data down the pipe is no big deal.

Chroma sampling at 60P is something I want to find out more about. I'm thinking of devising a test, just a simple pattern with red and blue primary colors abutting eachother. That might be as simple as recording SMPTE color bars at 24 and 60P on the Shogun Inferno and then analyzing the two clips in the NLE via zooming in and counting the transition pixels and looking for differences.

Yes, DCI is 24.000P and 48.000P. The latter being limited to 2K. At least the FS7 can do 24.000P now.

Interesting side note: in 60P, via SDI, the Shogun can record 2K. I don't know why it can't see a signal at 24P though. Maybe I have to try 24.000P and not 23.976..
 
Well, I stated some month ago that the FS7 does not deliver 10bit 422 by HDMI. NOBODY believed that. But now you got the confirmation too. That is one of the reasons why the raw capabilities of the XDCA and either the Shogun Inferno or the Q7+ may make sense. Or one sticks with the FS7 internal recording! ;)
 
Some have asserted that Sony themselves said it was 10-bit, and I think even some of the industry heads who make products that interface with the FS7 stated as such. However, my own observations make me suspect it's not 10-bit.

Compare out of focus monochrome bokeh areas of an image on both XAVC and Prores clips. For me, it stood out most on out of focus lake water that was a bit choppy. Banding jumped out at me on the Prores version recorded with the Shogun. But the XAVC showed smooth gradations of blue tones in those areas.

I noticed it again with the 600mm moon shots. Prores version had some bands of false colors on an otherwise monochrome lunar image. XAVC was riddled with macroblocks, but no false colors. It was a choice between macroblocks and false color bands.

I'll probably buy an XDCA next year and try RAW and see if that solves this matter.
 
I had a statement half a year ago by Sony, that the FS7 delivers 8bit by hdmi only. I published that here and even Mitch was surprised at this time. So it was wellknown, but is not to the favour of both Atomos and CD.

It would have been easy to overcome that in the FS7 II, by choosing a hdmi 2.0b interface. But I do not know if they have done that.

The XDCA delivers banding in the lowlights in some cases, and I see no reason why that should have been changed.
 
I guess the current HDMI interface is 2.0 compatible, and plenty enough of conveying UHD/4K in 12-bit 4:4:4. But it has been crippled in purpose by Sony in framerates higher than 30 fps, in order to force the XDCA adapter purchase on those who'd like to record externally in quality higher than XAVC; I could live with it (in spite of the crazy adapter's price), were it not for the allegedly poor DR and low-light detail in the RAW signal...

Piotr
 
As an owner of the 7Q, I am constantly amazed at the features packed into what in effect is a recording monitor. Granted some of the features are wasted on me such as the live switching but there was a time I made a living doing excercise videos and what I would have given to have an Odyssey in those days--the Beta days.
However I do wish CD would release DNxHD. The newly released ProRes Proxy is a great alternative to those of us who only need 4:2:2 50 but the Avid codec would make a nearly perfect device...perfect!
Love to see a timeline on that!
 
Maybe it was the advertised specs on B&H's web site which state that the HDMI port is version 2.0. I can't find any reference in the manual, other than it stating "type A".

The unclear part is whether the HDMI is 8-bit at all frame rates, or just frame rates above 30.
 
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