FS5: Is it worth it to hold out for Shogun Inferno, or just invest in 7Q+ instead?

FWIW, the Flame will record 4K-DCI when fed a RAW signal from my FS700. That's the ONLY time I've seen it bring up 4k-DCI. That tells me something. While the processor and display are capable of 4K-DCI, there's something in the input pipeline that limits thruput. It doesn't necessarily, have to be the HDMI port, but could be anything, frame buffer, multiplexer, digitizer, et. etc.
 
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Looks pretty sweet. I don't really want to record RAW with my FS5. I just need ProRes and 240fps continuous. I think I need to have the RAW update still though, then just record at any quality I need.


 
basspig said:
Which deepens the mystery.. if Shogun and 7Q+ have the same spec'd HDMI port, and one supports DCI 4K at 23.98 FPS and the other does not, it just demonstrates that not all manufacturers adhere to the port specification. No matter what I have tried, I have never been able to get DCI 4K video to appear at 23.98 FPS on the Shogun.

One sometimes chooses the FS7 for the DCI 4K capability. Otherwise, one can save lots of money by buying a UHD camera like the A7S.
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I don't think it's "a mystery". One device is designed to do it and the other isn't, for whatever reason. I can put the same high performance tires on a Porsche and a Yugo, but that doesn't mean they can both drive the same speed.

When the Sony FS5/7/700 output in RAW, they only do so at DCI 4K or DCI 2K resolution, no UHD or HD. So any recorder that will use these signals MUST accept this resolution in that mode. Please note that it is a completely different recording mode with a completely different signal type. On the Odyssey7Q+, it either records the full input resolution in CinemaDNG or if recording to Apple ProRes, offers the option to record the signal as DCI 4K, UHD, DCI 2K or HD.

When the Odyssey7Q+ receives a 17x9 DCI 4K or DCI 2K input, it offers two display options. Either a 16x9 center extract or a 17x9 scaled letterbox so that the entire frame can be seen. Whichever display option is chosen for the OLED display is also sent to the SDI & HDMI outputs. Note that on the FS5, the built in LCD and viewfinders DO NOT show the full 17x9 frame, instead only presenting the center cut 16x9 image area. This makes the Odyssey7Q+ the ONLY device that will allow one to see the entire actual frame that is being output by the camera and captured. Imagine the unhappy moment in post when you discover the C-stand visible on the side of that once-in-a-lifetime shot because it didn't show up in the viewfinder.
 
Chadfish said:
Looks pretty sweet. I don't really want to record RAW with my FS5. I just need ProRes and 240fps continuous.
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Even with the Shogun Flame you can record to 4K DCI and 4K UHD 24, 25p and 30p - either to CDNG but also to ProRes. So you can have ProRes. But the framerate seems to be limited here for HD to 120 fps.

And I say it again an again - HDMI is not an option at all at UHD 50p/60p with the FS7. Or are you satisfied wih 8bit 420??
 
Mitch Gross said:
I don't think it's "a mystery". One device is designed to do it and the other isn't, for whatever reason. I can put the same high performance tires on a Porsche and a Yugo, but that doesn't mean they can both drive the same speed.

When the Sony FS5/7/700 output in RAW, they only do so at DCI 4K or DCI 2K resolution, no UHD or HD. So any recorder that will use these signals MUST accept this resolution in that mode. Please note that it is a completely different recording mode with a completely different signal type. On the Odyssey7Q+, it either records the full input resolution in CinemaDNG or if recording to Apple ProRes, offers the option to record the signal as DCI 4K, UHD, DCI 2K or HD.

When the Odyssey7Q+ receives a 17x9 DCI 4K or DCI 2K input, it offers two display options. Either a 16x9 center extract or a 17x9 scaled letterbox so that the entire frame can be seen. Whichever display option is chosen for the OLED display is also sent to the SDI & HDMI outputs. Note that on the FS5, the built in LCD and viewfinders DO NOT show the full 17x9 frame, instead only presenting the center cut 16x9 image area. This makes the Odyssey7Q+ the ONLY device that will allow one to see the entire actual frame that is being output by the camera and captured. Imagine the unhappy moment in post when you discover the C-stand visible on the side of that once-in-a-lifetime shot because it didn't show up in the viewfinder.
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I think comparisons like "Porsche an Yugo" in the context of a competitors product are not very appropriate for a company representative/Director of Communication. Neither is that comparision fact based, because the Atomos products are not so worse that they are a "Yugo". And the CD are not so great that they are a "Porsche". The differences are limited in reality.

Fact based I also see not much differenc between the poducts. The Shogun Inferno will accept inputs to 4K DCI, 2K DCI and seems to have also conversions to 2K/1080p. Can be found in their Specs. And if one take Raw to ProRes then also to 240p. And the rest - we will see. That is why I will wait for first reviews.
 
Again, will the Inferno accept DCI 4K without having to hang the $2000 box on the back of the FS7 known as XDCA?

As to the quality of frame rates over 30, where is the Sony publication that specifically states degraded output quality? By your logic, FS7 sports HDMI 2.0, which is good for full resolution to 4K 60P.

HDMI 2.JPG

Oddly, 10-bit and 16-bit is the depth at which HDMI 2.0 supports 4:2:0, which seems counter to the logic of more bit depth, less room for color sampling. Why sampling drops to 4:2:0 at 10-bits and then increases back to 4:2:2 at 12-bits doesn't make sense.

I wish someone at Sony could clear up this confusion.
 
wschmid said:
Even with the Shogun Flame you can record to 4K DCI and 4K UHD 24, 25p and 30p - either to CDNG but also to ProRes. So you can have ProRes. But the framerate seems to be limited here for HD to 120 fps.

And I say it again an again - HDMI is not an option at all at UHD 50p/60p with the FS7. Or are you satisfied wih 8bit 420??
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My buddy just got the RAW upgrade in anticipation of buying the Inferno when it comes out. He found that with the FS5's RAW upgrade he can now record UHD in 4 sec bursts at 120fps. That's pretty cool. Anyway, I'm hoping I can record UHD at 10bit 422 with the RAW upgrade and the Inferno. Not sure if that's possible yet.
 
wschmid said:
I think comparisons like "Porsche an Yugo" in the context of a competitors product are not very appropriate for a company representative/Director of Communication. Neither is that comparision fact based, because the Atomos products are not so worse that they are a "Yugo". And the CD are not so great that they are a "Porsche". The differences are limited in reality.

Fact based I also see not much differenc between the poducts. The Shogun Inferno will accept inputs to 4K DCI, 2K DCI and seems to have also conversions to 2K/1080p. Can be found in their Specs. And if one take Raw to ProRes then also to 240p. And the rest - we will see. That is why I will wait for first reviews.
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Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that Odyssey7Q+ was a Porsche compared to the competition's Yugo. I guess a better analogy would be that you could put high performance tires on a truck vs a sedan and still get a different driving experience. The point was that the HDMI connection is just one small cog in the device. Just because it may technically have a certain capability does not mean the rest of the device designed around it is utilizing that particular spec.

Bad phrasing; didn't mean to denigrate. Wasn't the point.
 
Chadfish said:
My buddy just got the RAW upgrade in anticipation of buying the Inferno when it comes out. He found that with the FS5's RAW upgrade he can now record UHD in 4 sec bursts at 120fps. That's pretty cool. Anyway, I'm hoping I can record UHD at 10bit 422 with the RAW upgrade and the Inferno. Not sure if that's possible yet.
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That is not part of the listed specs for that product. However it is a capability that the Odyssey7Q+ currently offers.
 
Mitch Gross said:
That is not part of the listed specs for that product. However it is a capability that the Odyssey7Q+ currently offers.
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I understand that 10bit 422 is part of the Atomos specification, since they write for raw to ProRes:
"Frame rates 4K DCI / 4K UHD; 24/25/30/50/60p"

So it should work for BOTH DCI and UHD in the Shohun too. Will be interesting to see if that happens but I think so. And since it comes from raw it should be possible with 10bit 422, also since here the hdmi interface is not used but the data stream of SDI. What is not specified are the 120fps, that will work up to 60p only.

Finally basspig got it! It is also Sony that does not mention for the FS7 that HDMI 2 does not deliver 10bit 422 for 4K 50p/60p. And that is ok that Sony does not mention that. Because it is NOT specified at all in the hdmi specification. And they expect the user to know that. Unfair? Maybe, but that is the name of the game. But he is not alone. Most users of recorder do not know that constrain, and do not beliefe that too since it sounds so stupid.
 
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Just to clear this up-- as of now, there is no way to record 10-bit 4K at 60P externally from the FS7 without using the raw work between? The 3G-SDI only outputs 10-bit 4K at a max of 30fps?

Considering many people buy the FS7 because it can record 10-bit 4K 60P internally, to not have that option out of the camera seems like more than just a "gloss over" of HDMI specs by Sony. Help sort me out please. :)
 
3G SDI maxes out at 1080p.

Apparently you must buy an expensive add on to get RAW output. And some the quality of the RAW is not good because it's 12 bit linear.
 
wschmid said:
I understand that 10bit 422 is part of the Atomos specification, since they write for raw to ProRes:
"Frame rates 4K DCI / 4K UHD; 24/25/30/50/60p"

So it should work for BOTH DCI and UHD in the Shohun too. Will be interesting to see if that happens but I think so. And since it comes from raw it should be possible with 10bit 422, also since here the hdmi interface is not used but the data stream of SDI. What is not specified are the 120fps, that will work up to 60p only.
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I was very specific in what I wrote. I was responding to a single point, which I quoted in my post.

The FS700 and the FS5 (but not the FS7) both offer a mode where the camera will capture a short burst of DCI 4K RAW at 100p or 120p to an internal buffer and then play out this buffer to an external recorder. The ONLY two devices currently on the market that can accept this signal and record it are the Sony RAW recorder kit and the Odyssey7Q+. The Odyssey7Q+ can record this burst in CinemaDNG or in Apple ProRes. When recording in Apple ProRes, the Odyssey7Q+ can change the original DCI 4K so that the resolution of the captured video is DCI 4K, UHD, DCI 2K or HD 1080p. The Sony recorder only captures in RAW and at the original resolution.

And most specifically what I noted before, while there is another recorder by a different manufacturer announced to come out sometime in the next few months, the published specs for this device do not indicate that it can record this high speed DCI 4K burst in any format. That is what I said and I stand by that statement.
 
When I said "I'm hoping I can record UHD at 10bit 422 with the RAW upgrade and the Inferno." I was only expecting 30fps.
 
Thanks

Thanks

cuervo said:
Owning both a Shogun Flame and an Odyssey 7Q+, I will suggest the following considerations:
1-The Inferno is slightly cheaper. You don't have to pay extra to license camera brands.
2-Build quality is about the same.
3-Inferno has DNxHR. C-D has been promising DNxHR for over 2 years and it still hasn't appeared.
4-The Inferno has a 1500 nit display that can be used in an edit bay as a cheap HDR monitor.
5-The O7Q+ has considerably more capability and flexibility, like licensing for Apollo, loading and applying LUTs..
6-C-D has a much more accessible Customer Service and Support.
7-The Inferno requires their media to be packaged in a proprietary enclosure that limits use of SSD's in conventional readers like the BMD thunderbolt devices(faster downloads).
8-The O7Q+ is capable of higher framerate recording
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Just whant to thank you for this efficient, objective summary.
 
7Q+ is your best option, hands down. I have it with my FS5, and it is incredible. Planning on using it with my new FS7. I bought mine for my GH4 originally, then I used it with my A7S, now I use it with my FS5. I'm now upgrading to an Fs7II and guess what? 4 iterations of cameras for me, the 7Q+ remains.

Matt Zappile
Director | Producer | Post Guy
mattzappile.com
 
mmzappile said:
7Q+ is your best option, hands down. I have it with my FS5, and it is incredible. Planning on using it with my new FS7. I bought mine for my GH4 originally, then I used it with my A7S, now I use it with my FS5. I'm now upgrading to an Fs7II and guess what? 4 iterations of cameras for me, the 7Q+ remains.

Matt Zappile
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Have you used the Inferno yet? What does the 7Q do that the inferno does not? Does the 7Q have a 1,500 nit monitor? My good friend just bought the Inferno and it does everything, and cheaper, with better build quality, and with a real HDMI jack and real Audio in/out (XLR). Also HDMI to SDI conversion, and HDR monitoring for LOG exposure with no guesswork. It's time to put down the Cool Aid and check out the amazing Shogun Inferno. I feel we aren't getting a true unbiased comparison of the 7Q and the Inferno here because we have the makers of the 7Q sponsoring the forum. Anyway, I'm sure they are telling the truth about their own products. I would just like to see more info on the Inferno as more people get them in their hands. I'm not purchasing now because I've bought too much gear this year to be able to claim any more on my taxes, so I'm waiting for 2017 to dig into the external recorder world.

 
As some may have read my other thread, I did take a chance on the Inferno and, on the whole, I'm quite pleased with it.

Pluses:
Bright display, easy focus in direct sunlight.
Records true DCI 4K rom the FS7 HDMI port up to 30P. UHD up to 60P
Full HD display
Convenient SSD drive caddies. Offload at 300MB/sec to workstation.

Negatives:

Atom HDR shows , magenta posterizing at low luma levels.
It's a pig on batteries.


That's the main stuff. I may get the RAW adapter for FS7 and experiment with 240fps later.

I paid $1695 at BH Photo, even though the 1 day price drop occured a week after I bought mine (they refunded the difference ). Great company.
 
Chadfish said:
I'm not purchasing now because I've bought too much gear this year to be able to claim any more on my taxes, so I'm waiting for 2017 to dig into the external recorder world.
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That is quite impressive. Until now, I didn't know anyone who had spent $500,000 on equipment in 2016. Congratulations!
 
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