F5: Is it me or is SONY is making a flop with F5/F55?

If one is the type who uses buzzwords like gamechanger and are worried about being able to impress people with overhyped cameras and indicate what camera one's shooting on in every casting call then perhaps the F55 is not one's bag. I can totally understand these types of people labeling the camera a "flop" because Sony doesn't market like Canon or Red does. They should go get a RED because one will probably like what that will do for them better than these cams.

On the other hand, those who are concerned with the best tool for the job should be happy with the F's. I wouldn't be surprised if the f55 starts showing up on bigger Hollywood films without all the marketing hype kind of like the Alexa did.
 
ryaninoz said:
The question is are they selling? Who is buying tem?
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To the first question, then "yes"! (At least in the UK.) To the second, see my previous post about the UK rental camera survey. The answer to your question is "just about every camera rental business in the UK". (And a significant percentage of the freelancers I know as well.)
 
ryaninoz said:
I've been wondering that myself, I think the f55 is fantastic however there is zero buzz around this camera, in Australia everyone seems to want the c300 also the 4k bmc has spooked a lot of buyers away from spending more. I think once the f55s start joining rental fleets things might change but we seem to be in an era where spending more than 10 k on a camera is very risky, when you consider 4k raw is now possible on hacked dslrs and cameras like the bmc are offering so much for so little.

Personally I am very keen on buying the f55 I just wonder like you if it's going to become popular.
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If you're in a market that is being dominated by c300's and BMC, you're not going to do very well with the F55. The F55 is a different camera with higher price point, and therefore a higher rental/day rate. If you are in that market, the F55 is going to be a difficult proposition. Those other camera's are in demand because of their price point.

It is still relatively early in the product lifecycle, and the camera's are getting out there, but high market saturation takes more than a couple of months.

I've had my camera a month now and I've worked on it for a five days and dry hired it back to my dealer for another 3 (who is struggling to meet demand with their existing rental fleet).

Sony are not out there pushing the format, but they never do. I adopted the PDW 700 very early, and the Support from Sony was pretty terrible. The usual mode from Sony is, they make a great product, release it, and (expectantly) wait for people to buy it. That's always been their model and it has worked. The Sony community forum is a massive leap forward in that sphere, and the amount of information avaialable about this camera there and here is truly remarkable.

Hype is just that, hype. It doesn't translate directly to sales or days work. If you want to wait until the F55 is the in demand camera, you'll have to wait until the mob catches on and then you can run with them. If you want to be an early adopter, you'll have to get out and do the pitch yourself.... nothing good is easy
 
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Good points and thanks for your reply. Regarding the c300 /bmc market I'd say everyone but those of us shooting feature film
and episodic television is in that market. For tv doco and corporate the c300 is huge in Australia but I see no logic in buying one now the f5 is out. The 4k BMC really threw a lot of people, a Sony dealer I know said a lot of his clients were on the fence tempted by the bmpc 4k for 4k hype.

Perhaps once a lot of f55s start joining rental fleets producers might start asking for it more.
 
well I knew that would happen. I only see 3 cameras being asked for .... Alexa, RED, C300. In the past year, all the gigs I work for, or find, or dont get, ect ect.. never once have i seen demand for the Sony f5 or f55.

Sorry but to blame "hype" on RED is silly, because Alexa is doing it much more than RED right now, and so is Canon. So my opinion. Sony's marketing team SUCKS and thats that. There is no such thing as if you build it they will come anymore. There are many other cameras out there that flopped because no one knew about them. Heck even IKONoscope blew up with its D16 camera back in the day, all because of word of mouth and hype.

I left sony for just that reason, they make great products, that DONT make me money. Whats the good in that? If its not putting money in my pocket, its not worth buying. Sony stopped doing that for me, and thats when i switched and now im never looking back. Other manufacturers may not have the golden combination that the Sony F series has, but if no one knows about them, its as good as never being made in my book. They could have dominated the whole industry, instead they went backwards and hid their information and release... backwards company if you ask me. Everything they make is great, everything they have in marketing sucks. sorry.
 
Prendi said:
Don't hold back FilmDude ;)
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lol I just shoot straight. I'm sorry but I dont subscribe to loyalty to equipment, its my tool. I own it, and it should make me my investment back how I see fit. Even the clients who dont know a damn thing about cameras know what RED cam is and that its good, some with Alexa as well... Mention F5 and they start thinking about sports cars instead of cameras.
 
FilmDude, the item that you're leaving out is time. That's what Red has always done with it's marketing. They'll say 'In the future our camera will have X, Y and Z. Canon, Sony, etc don't." At the present time Sony has X,Y and Z and Red and Canon don't.

Just as camera development takes time, marketing takes time. Even the Alexa wasn't an overnight success, and it had the added advantage of being and Arri descendant. The F5 and F55 have only been released for a couple of months.

The F65 has only been out about a year. The F65 has already been used in several major motion pictures with big name stars. (I previously mentioned Oblivion, After Earth and Belle).

The F55 is being used now in major motion pictures that are in production. You'll see the F55 in many TV shows and movies because they are being used. Do you think Panavision bought 200 of them as rentals because there is no demand? Demand is the heart of their business.

I think in another year you'll be able to point to a lot of big productions using these cameras due to costs, versatility, ease of use and work flow. For producers that means money and quality. For money there is always a demand.

[PS. You did notice in the thread "3 F55's on the set today" that Shane Kelly and Taylor Rudd were both doing three camera gigs with the F55 and Cabrios, right? Somebody's paying them to use them.]
 
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FilmDude said:
well I knew that would happen. I only see 3 cameras being asked for .... Alexa, RED, C300. In the past year, all the gigs I work for, or find, or dont get, ect ect.. never once have i seen demand for the Sony f5 or f55.
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the camera practically just came out so I'd say you may give your observations another few months. I'm actually seeing high demand for the F55 and a lot of dp's very interested in the camera. I'd agree with you that the f5 may not go far but the F55 is very strong competition for Arri and red. BTW red know this which is why they dropped their prices on announcement of the f55 and then tried to keep them off the market by litigation.
 
FilmDude said:
I only see 3 cameras being asked for .... Alexa, RED, C300. In the past year, all the gigs I work for, or find, or dont get, ect ect.. never once have i seen demand for the Sony f5 or f55.
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Dude, for most of that year the F55 wasn't released, and initially it was a very small release. No one had them. LOL
 
As others have already said I think its far too early to say if its a "flop". Give it another year and then let's see where it lands.

Anything is possible.
 
Noel Evans said:
Not commenting on the "topic" here. Just a general statement and its opinion (without mod on). I see threads like this and just think the titles are extremely heavy handed. FLOP, DEAD, GAME CHANGER, BEST EVER etc etc. Those words have almost entirely lost any meaning.
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Agreed. People saying "game changer" on camera forums is as annoying as those goons who shout "in the hole" when golfers tee off on a par fives...

That said, Sony will sell a lot of these cameras.
 
As a reseller and rental house, I can tell you that the F55 is doing quite well, thank you. If fact the relative number of F55 to F5 is much higher than predicted based on pricing and features. Clients really appreciate the value of the F55. They are buying plenty of F5 cameras as well, just more F55 than all of us originally expected.
 
Liam Hall said:
Agreed. People saying "game changer" on camera forums is as annoying as those goons who shout "in the hole" when golfers tee off on a par fives...

That said, Sony will sell a lot of these cameras.
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OK, let's not say game changer, as it's a buzz phrase. It annoys you and heaven forbid we do that. But they did force Red to slash their prices by a considerable amount and the F55 will probably force others to consider global shutters. Not a game changer, but still, they have forced the hand of other manufacturers thus changing the gam... I think it's one of the most significant cameras to have been released in the last few years and no, I don't own it. And I don't even like Sony that much. I just really lust that particular camera.
 
I really think once these cameras start joining rental fleets in greater numbers we will see a lot more buzz. Once producers start asking for them and start seeing the benefits of global shutter, high frame rates and a workable 4k option then things will change. The elephant in the room is the Blackmagic 4k production camera, 4k and global shutter to pro res, it's not in the same class as the f55 in terms of latitude and low light performance but I am sure that camera will put a lot of pressure on the other manufacturers while the f55 will push into Alexa and Red territory.
 
Black magic camera does not exist. From past experience it's still two years away. What kind of pressure can a vaporware (effectively what a BM 4K cam is today) create? Since when FUD as defined by IBM in the computer world has become a marketing norm? This is insanity....
 
Prendi said:
OK, let's not say game changer, as it's a buzz phrase. It annoys you and heaven forbid we do that. But they did force Red to slash their prices by a considerable amount and the F55 will probably force others to consider global shutters. Not a game changer, but still, they have forced the hand of other manufacturers thus changing the gam... I think it's one of the most significant cameras to have been released in the last few years and no, I don't own it. And I don't even like Sony that much. I just really lust that particular camera.
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Red was a "game changer" in the truest sense of the term but they are getting left behind by ignoring their professional users and catering to their fanboys. I've owned a red since they were released and currently own an epic but we've asked for years for a prores proxy module and have been told that we don't want it. So now sony comes along an offers a 4k camera that allows 4k and an offline proxy format to the same card. In a camera that uses 3 batteries to run all day. With a great viewfinder. With high speed that doesn't window the sensor. With real xlr inputs and more than one sdi output and on and on and on.
Red was a game-changer (much as I hate that term ) but Sony, like it or not, took what red and arri learned and built a camera that incorporates the best of both and even goes beyond. (global shutter and internal ND's e.g.)
Once the high speed is enabled on my f55, the epic goes up for sale. I'm not worried in the least about the success of the f55.
 
While I've used and have been quite happy with the F5's image, I've been waiting till the full features (internal 2K/4K, high fps) are enabled via firmware before potentially buying.
 
LowDown said:
Red was a "game changer" in the truest sense of the term but they are getting left behind by ignoring their professional users and catering to their fanboys.
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Sorry a bit off topic: I think this is a really interesting point. I love my Red Scarlet, and for my needs and my budget, it is the perfect solution. But there is so much talk and speculation about how amazing Dragon will be, but really all we know is more resolution, DR and better low light. Considering there are several solutions out there at the moment that have better DR and low light - and Red appear to be the only ones who think we need 6K - it will be interesting to see what they pull out with Dragon, and how it is received. A lot of people are just asking for a more Alexa-like image with all of the benefits of Red (resolution, high fps etc) so it will be interesting exactly WHAT Red delivers with the Dragon sensor.

But on topic: The F65 is delivering some absolutely beautiful images now that films like Oblivion are coming out, I think as soon as we start seeing actual film and television (ie: not vimeo) produced with the F55 (and F5) it might be a different story.
 
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