Barry_Green
Moderator
Because the 4K concept was a 2/3" sensor.
Is Canon planning to release a competitor for the AF-100???
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Barry_Green
Moderator
Because he said it would be priced to compete with Red, and that's $28k, which is not in the same league as the F3.
jdesignhi
Well-known member
Canon has almost certainly been at work on something. Remember this story from
September 20, 2010:
http://www.digitalcamerainfo.com/content/Canon-4K-Prototype-Camera--Camcorder-First-Impressions-21887.htm
:happy:
I never said 2/3" sensor.
It's already been clarified that what he was saying was effectively "...to compete with the Red, or the F3 and AF100".
Let me ask this question: if you were Canon, and:
1) Had that concept over a year ago,
2) Last Fall saw the AF100 announced, then in the winter saw the F3 announced,
3) Saw all the noise RED has been making with EPIC and SCARLET,
4) Saw the writing on the wall w.r.t. large sensor, removable-lens pro cameras
5) Had a fairly "stale" product line (with some holes), w.r.t. current trends, but...
6) Had 5d etc. sensor technology available to you...
If you were running that business (Canon Pro Video cameras - not the DSLR division)... What would YOU have been working on for the past year? What would you have been working on for an announcement this Fall, shipping early next year?
I know what I'd be working on; I know what business I'd try to capture and own...
1) Had that concept over a year ago,
2) Last Fall saw the AF100 announced, then in the winter saw the F3 announced,
3) Saw all the noise RED has been making with EPIC and SCARLET,
4) Saw the writing on the wall w.r.t. large sensor, removable-lens pro cameras
5) Had a fairly "stale" product line (with some holes), w.r.t. current trends, but...
6) Had 5d etc. sensor technology available to you...
If you were running that business (Canon Pro Video cameras - not the DSLR division)... What would YOU have been working on for the past year? What would you have been working on for an announcement this Fall, shipping early next year?
I know what I'd be working on; I know what business I'd try to capture and own...
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
I didn't mean to be startin' somethin'. Just passing along what a friend of mine heard from a DP he's worked with, who has supposedly used a yet to be released Canon (video? cinema?) camera.
If true, and the cam has:
-a sensor that's between academy 35 and super 35,
-has a PL mount or the ability adapt to PL
-records to a codec (and all the affiliated codec'y stuff) that can handle advanced post
-with all the production niceties that you need to perform in a real commercial shoot situation
Then I'll be in line with everyone else mid-November placing an order. If not My Af100's will continue to make me money, and I will add an F3 to the shelf in the studio.
All will be revealed in a few weeks time.
G.
If true, and the cam has:
-a sensor that's between academy 35 and super 35,
-has a PL mount or the ability adapt to PL
-records to a codec (and all the affiliated codec'y stuff) that can handle advanced post
-with all the production niceties that you need to perform in a real commercial shoot situation
Then I'll be in line with everyone else mid-November placing an order. If not My Af100's will continue to make me money, and I will add an F3 to the shelf in the studio.
All will be revealed in a few weeks time.
G.
Kindredmachine
Well-known member
Exactly! I really think Canon is going to announced what is essentially a re-housed 5DMII from the pro camera division with XLR inputs etc... They would be stupid not too.
Barry_Green
Moderator
I didn't think you meant 2/3", you said S35. And the hair dryer is 2/3". And so if they put out the 4K 2/3" sensor, as I expect them to, then that would mean my money was safe because you predicted S35...
Barry_Green
Moderator
Well, let me answer your question this way:
If Canon saw that JVC introduced consumer HD in 2003 and Sony put out the high-def FX1 in 2003 and the HDV Z1 in Feb 2004, what do you think Canon would introduce? Answer: a standard-def DV XL2. Announced in 2004. Seriously? Yes, seriously.
Or, if Canon saw that Panasonic announced the HVX200 at NAB 2005, with tapeless memory recording and variable frame rates and 720p and 1080p, what do you think Canon introduced? Answer: a tape-based HDV camcorder that costs almost twice as much. XLH1, announced April 2005.
Or -- if Canon saw that Sony was introducing a 1/2" tapeless SxS camcorder in November 2007, and Panasonic was introducing their second-generation tapeless cameras (HPX170 and HMC150) at NAB 2008, what would you guess Canon would introduce? Answer: a rehash of the same tape-based HDV camcorder, the XLH1s, that still costs almost twice as much. And another tape-based HDV camcorder, the XHA1. I'm not joking. That's what really happened.
Or -- if Canon saw that Panasonic was introducing a large-sensor interchangeable-lens cinema camera (AF100) and Sony was showing a large-sensor interchangeable-lens cinema camera (the F3) at NAB 2010, what would you think Canon would introduce? A 1/3" MPEG-2 camera - the XF300. Yes. When the rest of the world is going AVC and large sensor and interchangeable lens and variable frame rates, Canon finally introduced a competitor to the 2005-era HVX200. FIVE YEARS after the fact.
That's what's happened. Time and time again, Canon has been way too late to the party with a product that nobody actually wants.
So let me respond with a different question: why should this time be any different? Sony just barely, just barely got the FS100 out on the shelves, what, four months ago? Seems like it's about time for Canon to introduce a 1/3" solid-state camera with SxS. Seriously, that's about the most that a reasonable person could expect from them. I'm being very generous by allowing that they might (MIGHT) put out some version of the hair dryer.
That's the history that they've given us. That's what I'm making my predictions based on. But, hey, we'll all see. I've put my money on the line. I don't think I'm wrong...
heavyG
Underwater Giraffe Member
You're thinking from the perspective of a filmmaker. Those products were directed towards a different market, not filmmakers. There are certainly people who wanted and purchased those products. The number isn't "nobody", which is a great exaggeration.
I think Canon has kept to their MO. They let Sony and Panasonic release their large sensor cameras and just kept diligently working away on their own. I fully expect a large sensor camera on Nov 3. Just look at the Canon press release again for the Hollywood center. There are so many clues in there. It's not going to be 2/3". Hollywood doesn't want 2/3". And most of all, Canon would sell a heck of more Canon lenses if it wasn't 2/3".
Barry_Green
Moderator
I'm thinking from the perspective of those of us who typically traffic DVXUser.com. I wouldn't say "nobody" in the literal term, obviously, but Canons have traditionally sold in dramatically fewer numbers as compared to the Sonys and Panasonics.
Oh, I'm sure they have. But as per the pattern, I don't think we'll see it until 2013. They've never come out with a truly competitive product that was on par with the competition until usually at least two to three years later. That's why I can't see them coming out with a truly competitive product after only five months of the Sony FS100 release, and within 10 months of the AF100 release. It's just too soon, as compared to their historical pattern.
Well, I fully expect there will not be a large sensor professional videocamera announced or released by Canon on Nov 3. I think it's more likely that the Nov. 3rd announcement will be more about that Hollywood center, and invites and tours to it, stuff like that. Promoting of their cinema lenses, sure. Showcasing their top-end glass, sure. But a $5,000 FS100/AF100? It would be profoundly out of character for them to release something like that so immediately after the other companies, they've never been anywhere near that fast. And a more-expensive full-on F3 competitor would represent creating a whole new market for them. The highest they've ever gone is the $8999 XLH1s.
But, hey, whatever, this is going in circles, none of us know what they're actually going to do. If I'm totally wrong and they introduce an S35 F3 competitor AND an S35 FS100/AF100 competitor, I'll send $500 to Isara then and there. And if Canon doesn't introduce those things? I'll laugh myself silly, roll my eyes, say "I told you so"... and probably still send that dough to Isara... :thumbsup:
Barry_Green
Moderator
I asked them about that. They said that they are a lens company first and foremost, and they'll do whatever to sell more lenses. They (at that time, a couple of years ago) had no interest in jeopardizing the relationship with their biggest customers, who were Sony and Panasonic. They make a lot of dough on a $30k to $80k broadcast or cinema lens.
But that was a couple of years ago. If they've totally changed direction and have all new management and a different marketing focus and they think they can make EOS lenses viable in the video world, who knows, maybe they'll step forward and compete on that level with a camera body. We'll find out in three weeks.
mjmcneese
Veteran
Barry's points are very valid. Canon has historically played catch-up to Panny, Sony and JVC.
But, its a little different this time around.
Even though it was sort of an accident, Canon is the biggest contributor to the VDSLR craze. And even though their DSLR products are flawed for pro filmmaking, they have an edge on the Sony's and Panny's because they sorta invented the technology.
The AF100 is a good camera, I own one, but the clipping, dynamic range and AVC recording are limitations. The FS100 doesn't even have ND filters, and it's still about as ergonomic as state park toilet. Canon has the sensor. They have te XF format that could be a big improvement over AVC. They have the lenses and the engineering behind the mounts and lens communication. They have all the parts and pieces to put the camera of many's dreams on the market.
But will they?
But, its a little different this time around.
Even though it was sort of an accident, Canon is the biggest contributor to the VDSLR craze. And even though their DSLR products are flawed for pro filmmaking, they have an edge on the Sony's and Panny's because they sorta invented the technology.
The AF100 is a good camera, I own one, but the clipping, dynamic range and AVC recording are limitations. The FS100 doesn't even have ND filters, and it's still about as ergonomic as state park toilet. Canon has the sensor. They have te XF format that could be a big improvement over AVC. They have the lenses and the engineering behind the mounts and lens communication. They have all the parts and pieces to put the camera of many's dreams on the market.
But will they?
Ok, I'll take a shot. I split my time about equally in the industry between shooting stills with my 7D and 1DsMkIII and shooting video with my AF100 and HVX200. After watching both sides of the industry for 20 year, here is my thoughts on what is about to happen...
Before the November Hollywood event Canon will announce:
A convergence of the 1D series into the 1D5. A full frame, awesome high-ISO camera with a high speed crop mode to satiate .the sports shooters. And...
A big surprise ... A new "micro EOS" mount camera to compete with MFT and the new Nikon small mount stuff.
Surprise 2 (to some) no 5D3.
The November Hollywood announcement will include TWO new video cameras, both using the same sensor from the 7D-t3i. One will use the full sized EOS mount (which is adaptable to about anything) and another, lower spec camera using the new microEOS mount. I won't speculate on specs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the EOS mount camera specs out at better than 1080p.
Before the November Hollywood event Canon will announce:
A convergence of the 1D series into the 1D5. A full frame, awesome high-ISO camera with a high speed crop mode to satiate .the sports shooters. And...
A big surprise ... A new "micro EOS" mount camera to compete with MFT and the new Nikon small mount stuff.
Surprise 2 (to some) no 5D3.
The November Hollywood announcement will include TWO new video cameras, both using the same sensor from the 7D-t3i. One will use the full sized EOS mount (which is adaptable to about anything) and another, lower spec camera using the new microEOS mount. I won't speculate on specs, but I wouldn't be surprised if the EOS mount camera specs out at better than 1080p.
aguia
Active member
The only thing that would really get me talking about Canon would be a sub-$6K cine quality zoom in a PL mount, something that would spank the Red 17-50 or DigiOptical 18-50. If anyone could do it Canon could, and I don't think it would even be that difficult for them.
From my own experiences with Canon video products I would probably not be inclined to own another of their cameras. The HDSLR thing was a fluke, they admit that they were taken by surprise by the whole thing. I think if they were smart they would come up with some modular solutions for filmmakers along with an updated 5d. Trying to take on both Sony and Panasonic at this stage and with Japan's economy where it is seems a little un-Canon-like.
But all this stuff must make it painful for the Red-Scarlet team.
