Is 24p judder really this bad??

K

King Rudi

Member
Hey guys,

I've got a serious problem. I filmed a wedding on 24p, edited on a 23.97 timeline, exported to 23.97 with a 3:2 pulldown, and the judder looks like this!! (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sUkUYA2fJtc) I've honestly tried everything I can these past two weeks, researched as much as I could, tried as many plugins and tools to try correct it, nothing helps! If someone here could help me, you would be my ultimate hero! I'm really at my wits end, I need serious help :cry:
 
To my eye, that doesn't look normal, it sort of jumps as if there are frames being added incorrectly, or you've deinterlaced it after you added the pulldown.

I export at 23.976 progressive, for both web and DVD. The DVD player will correctly fill in the pulldown when needed. And for the web there's no need for pulldown.

Do a short test and see if that clears it up.

-Kevin
 
strobing is worse the more telephoto (zoomed in) you are shooting, this clip looks accurate to me, there are so many threads on this, this is normal, certain things hide it though, like following a subject in frame, if you look closely, the background will be extremely juddery, but our eyes are focused on the subject which stays relatively at the same place in your composition since you are panning with it -- in your clip, you are not following anything, just panning too fast on a telephoto lens-- solution, at that focal length with no subject being followed, pan slower...
 
Snacksnack is correct - It's not normal

If you download the clip from YT, and check each frame, every ~3rd frame is blended. YT probably screwed up the pulldown flags. Follow his advice and use native progressive (no telecine). I wouldn't use mpeg2 for uploading to YT anyways, very inefficient
 
Thanks for the help guys. The raw footage is also jittery like that, I was thinking that a 3:2 pulldown would fix it, but obviously not. Does that help with anything? The raw footage, frame by frame, goes: move-still-move-still-still (repeat). And after export from Premiere it goes: move-move-move-blend (repeat). Why is working with 24p so difficult, wow! Is there no possible way to get it smooth?
 
What a lot of 24p enthusiasts don´t understand, is that in cinema they show you each frame at least twice, sometimes eve three times.
Those double/triple frames are divided by a short black period, which tricks your eyes and brain into flicker free, fluid motion.

This is something you can not emulate on computer, or DVD player./TV
Shooting interlaced or 50p is the closest thing you can get on any video camera.
Or you shoot 24p, print it on film and show it in a theater - but I guess that´s not an option.

Frank
 
I use a Canon and have never seen judder that bad before. How are you getting the footage into your editor and what are you using? Are you saying the original file out of the camera looks like that untouched? Which camera?
 
I use a Canon XL2. I transferred the footage using Adobe OnLocation. I'd expect some judder, but surely that is way too much?
 
Yeah, that is excessive. I do not use an XL2, but I'd be trying some different methods to make sure the footage came in right. The reason being, you need to reverse telecine the footage as the Canon is adding in the extra frames before it stores it as DV. I had this with my Canon HV30 which uses the same method of storing 24p.

I used a free utility called jes Deinterlacer with my HV30 footage and it worked REALLY well, here is a link to the site:

http://www.xs4all.nl/~jeschot/home.html

If I recall correctly, what I liked most about it was that it could detect the cadence of the added frames and removed them properly. This is what you need to do BEFORE you get into your NLE and everything will be fine afterwards. Then, you should see standard juddering when you pan too fast, which I don't believe you did.
 
Is there something similar to that for PC? I've tried using VirtualDub, but when I drag my raw footage into it, it gives me a "Invalid AVI file: The main 'movi' block is missing" error :undecided
 
Postmaster said:
What a lot of 24p enthusiasts don´t understand, is that in cinema they show you each frame at least twice, sometimes eve three times.
Those double/triple frames are divided by a short black period, which tricks your eyes and brain into flicker free, fluid motion.

This is something you can not emulate on computer, or DVD player./TV
Click to expand...

This post is just so wrong. You can display 24p material on computers without any problems.
 
Could someone who is familiar with 24p maybe explain their complete workflow, from trasferring to final export? Maybe I can use that to solve my problem? I definitely can't give my client such jittery footage, he will be horrified :shocked:
 
I'm not familiar with this camera (or that error message from vdub) , but it's DV correct?

On PC, try WinDV to transfer your footage

First determine what mode you shot it , if it's 24PA, then Premiere should be able to handle it natively (remove pulldown)

If it's telecined 24p (24p in 60i) - which it probably is, then premiere cannot , you could use TIVTC in avisynth , or maybe virtualdub using IVTC filter.
 
King Rudi said:
Could someone who is familiar with 24p maybe explain their complete workflow, from trasferring to final export? Maybe I can use that to solve my problem? I definitely can't give my client such jittery footage, he will be horrified :shocked:
Click to expand...

pls provide this info,

did you use 24P in camera?
what shutter speed did you use on your camera? 48, 60 or something lower. or did you use auto shutter?
what timeline preset did you use? 23.976 or something else?
 
teddybear said:
pls provide this info,

did you use 24P in camera?
what shutter speed did you use on your camera? 48, 60 or something lower. or did you use auto shutter?
what timeline preset did you use? 23.976 or something else?
Click to expand...

Yes, I used 24p in camera, with a 1/48 shutter. I'm trying both a 23.97 and a 97.70 timeline, still the jitter remains :(
 
Postmaster said:
What a lot of 24p enthusiasts don´t understand, is that in cinema they show you each frame at least twice, sometimes eve three times.
Those double/triple frames are divided by a short black period, which tricks your eyes and brain into flicker free, fluid motion.
Click to expand...
Only partly. The showing the frame twice/three times is to even out the flicker in the whites. It has zero effect on the motion. You can see horrific eye-straining motion in the cinema if the cinematographer hasn't obeyed the rules. I remember the opening credits of "Sahara", they had like a two-minute pan around a room, and the strobing was so bad I'd never seen anything worse. You can see the same thing in lots of shots in the cinema if you look for it.

Film strobes exactly like 24p video does.
 
King Rudi said:
Yes, I used 24p in camera, with a 1/48 shutter. I'm trying both a 23.97 and a 97.70 timeline, still the jitter remains :(
Click to expand...

NOTHING is going to remove that judder being that bad until you reverse telecine the footage. I'd be searching for a PC solution because you are DEFINITELY not the only person to use 24p in a 60i wrapper on a PC :)
 
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