Is 24p Appropriate for Broadcast Commercials?

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neilw

Member
We're experienced commercial producers (local/regional), but new to the DVX100a w/24p. We've been getting by for a long time with FCE vs. FCP. With the DVX100a, we now have the option of 24p. But the question is, on broadcast TV (aired and cable delivered as QT MOV), will the 24p look/benefit carry over? Bottom line, is it worth it for us to upgrade to FCP just for 24p editing capability (acknowleding that there are many other things in FCP we would like, but don't necessarily need)?

If we can get a much better look to our commercials, happy to spend the money on FCP. Just need to hear it from experienced broadcast commercial producers that it will be a noticeable difference.

Thanks for the input to a new DVX user.
 
Cassius said:
It's not worth it in my opinion. Can you do 30p in FCE?
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You can do anything that has the editing timebase of 29.97. So since normal 24p on the DVX (not 24pA) is put into a 29.97 timeline, you should be able to edit it. I haven't tried it before but I have mixed 24p/60i/30p footage before in one timeline. Go ahead and ask in the FCP/FCE forum.
 
andythefilmer said:
You can do anything that has the editing timebase of 29.97. So since normal 24p on the DVX (not 24pA) is put into a 29.97 timeline, you should be able to edit it.
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But there's a catch. When you shoot in 24p Normal and edit as 29.97, the cadence doesn't hit at regular intervals through the edits and then becomes terribly noticeable. 24p Normal was created as a compromise for folks who wanted the 24p look but could not edit at 23.98. It is, again, a compromise, and the smoothness of motion is what's sacrificed.

24p production for local commercials is not a bad idea, depending on the look you want. I prefer the 24p look. But you'd need FCP to do it right.

The best way to go about it is to shoot 24pA, edit at 23.98, and then add the pull-down back in when you output to tape or to QT. That way, it's back to the 29.97 that the station will need and the pull-down cadence will be consistent from start to finish.
 
Well, no -- 24p "normal" is the same cadence (3:2 or 2:3, depending where you start) that's been used to broadcast 24 fps movies on NTSC TV since the '50s; it's the same cadence used on any Hollywood movie put on videotape or 29.97 DVD (which is rare and was only done in the very early days of DVD). It's also the cadence a DVD player will insert to play a 24p DVD on a standard TV. If you're watching 24 fps material on a standard NTSC TV, you're watching that cadence. So, you can still shoot 24p and edit on an NTSC timeline; that was done for TV shows for many years. (Of course, the BETTER way IS to shoot 24pA and edit as 24p. :) ) The 24p "look" will carry over, just as it does for movies and other 24 fps material (including most national commercials).

That said, mixing 24p, 30p, and 60i material all on a 60i timeline, you'll notice a big difference between all three, and unless you get really, really creative with the editing, it won't be pretty.
 
neilw said:
We're experienced commercial producers (local/regional), but new to the DVX100a w/24p. We've been getting by for a long time with FCE vs. FCP. With the DVX100a, we now have the option of 24p. But the question is, on broadcast TV (aired and cable delivered as QT MOV), will the 24p look/benefit carry over? Bottom line, is it worth it for us to upgrade to FCP just for 24p editing capability (acknowleding that there are many other things in FCP we would like, but don't necessarily need)?

If we can get a much better look to our commercials, happy to spend the money on FCP. Just need to hear it from experienced broadcast commercial producers that it will be a noticeable difference.

Thanks for the input to a new DVX user.
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I have like 7 spots on the air right now and as much as I love shooting everything in 24fps, I would stick to the 29.97 for all TV ads, which is what I have been doing with my last few just because it's a "wahm bam thank you write out my check out" kind of deal.

The difference in look (in my opinion) would not be worth it.
 
David Jimerson said:
W The 24p "look" will carry over, just as it does for movies and other 24 fps material (including most national commercials).
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My thoughts were to be shooting in 24pA, capture in FCP in 29.97, then edit in a 24 timeline. I guess my question remains: if after outputting the final commercial in QT for the broadcast stations, will the 24 fps motion "look" remain or would it be tough to distinguish from our normally produced spots? I am assuming the spot has to go back to interlaced for broadcast. I am, of course, also assuming that the 24p spots would contain motion, which is what I understand the 24p provides as the different "look".

Again, thanks for helping a new DVX user.
 
neilw said:
My thoughts were to be shooting in 24pA, capture in FCP in 29.97, then edit in a 24 timeline. I guess my question remains: if after outputting the final commercial in QT for the broadcast stations, will the 24 fps motion "look" remain or would it be tough to distinguish from our normally produced spots? I am assuming the spot has to go back to interlaced for broadcast. I am, of course, also assuming that the 24p spots would contain motion, which is what I understand the 24p provides as the different "look".

Again, thanks for helping a new DVX user.
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I say yes. I do spots in 24pA. You'll need FCS to do this. Capture at 29.97 with the advanced pull-down removal, edit at 23.98, and then have FCP or Compressor add the pull-down back in (that's what takes it back to 29.97) when you're done. The 24p look will carry over.
 
That's the best way of doing it, yes. You should, if you have the means, always shoot 24pA and edit as 24p. Then, any output is still available to you, which is not the case if you shoot 24p standard and edit as 29.97.
 
I bought my DVX100a in 2004 and probably have shot 100 TV Spots. I really never shoot in 60i (for my applications) and shoot now in 30p almost exclusively. That being said, I use 24p when I want (or need) a quality, rich overall look for clients that target high customers. I also have found it successful to add a certain crediblity to clients who are looking to project a quality or trustworthy message.
I have never used any pulldown or 24a. I simply create a master file with tone and bars and either deliver by download or Beta SP. The 24p is a great tool to create a mood when you need it.
Gary
 
Just to clear up any confusion . . . any time you have 24p base footage and are in a 29.97 (actually 59.94) stream, there's a pulldown involved. There has to be in order to take the 24 fps frame and put it into a 59.94 fields-per-second stream. So, if you're editing as 24p and just export to NTSC, a 2:3 (or 3:2) pulldown is inserted. What's probably NOT inserted is pulldown FLAG information, so no system will recognize the resulting footage as 24p, only NTSC.
 
David Jimerson said:
Just to clear up any confusion . . . any time you have 24p base footage and are in a 29.97 (actually 59.94) stream, there's a pulldown involved. There has to be in order to take the 24 fps frame and put it into a 59.94 fields-per-second stream. So, if you're editing as 24p and just export to NTSC, a 2:3 (or 3:2) pulldown is inserted. What's probably NOT inserted is pulldown FLAG information, so no system will recognize the resulting footage as 24p, only NTSC.
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Thanks to everyone for all the input and good ideas. I did break down and upgraded to FCS2. Now the learning curve of more options vs. Express!

On the above issue,I understand the capturing of the 24pa footage with the stripping of the pulldown, but not quite clear on the export as a QT MOV. Assuming I am giving this to the local small market cable company or TV station, can anyone give me the shortcut export routine? Just doing SD 4:3 commercials and the broadcasters do not issue strict formatting guidelines or preferences, etc. With FCE we just exported the NTSC project as a QT movie and they have been happy with that. But from the above postings, I am assuming in FCP I now need to do a little more.

Excited to get started with 24p. Shot some 24pa footage this weekend and will start to edit soon. A bit overwhelmed with the manuals with FCP. Fortunately, there is a great deal of similarity to FCE. Otherwise I would really be lost! (Also love the Motion templates for use in FCP! Giving us lots of new ideas vs. FCE.)

Thanks again to everyone.
 
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