Interns File Lawsuit Against FOX Searchlight

Phil1076 said:
I'm 35 and am not in the film industry (but I want to get into it)...if I had the opportunity to work on the set of a major movie, I'd get coffee, shine the janitor's shoes, take out the garbage..who cares? It would be a great opportunity to mingle, make connections and ask questions.
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Can you spell pride?

Perhaps it is my own personal experience, I no longer seek experience and advice on how to advance my career from people who have already done it, in person. Only on internet forums like this that people actually offer real sound advice. The idea working for free just to get my foot in the door to have an opportunity to connect with folks higher up with hopes that they can advance my career either directly or indirectly to me is just pure fantasy, a Hollywood script. In any industry success via this route is an exception not the rule, and I'm sure it is 10 times worst in the movie industry. I'm sure it happens here and there, just don't count on it, don't bet on it.
 
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chromeboy007 said:
Can you spell pride?

Perhaps it is my own personal experience, I no longer seek experience and advice on how to advance my career from people who have already done it, in person. Only on internet forums like this that people actually offer real sound advice. The idea sucking dicks for free just to get my foot in the door to have an opportunity to connect with folks higher up with hopes that they can advance my career either directly or indirectly to me is just pure fantasy, a Hollywood script. In any industry success via this route is an exception not the rule, and I'm sure it is 10 times worst in the movie industry. I'm sure it happens here and there, just don't count on it, don't bet on it.
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You've gotta be joking...Are you really saying that most people at the top just got there without working their way up?

I started working as a PA 4 years ago, then I started getting work as an electric, then started working as a best boy quite a bit. Now I just finished gaffing a feature and have been shooting a lot more. I've spent my time honing my craft and learning from people who have been doing this for far longer than I have. That's just what you have to do...and the last thing I'm worried about is my pride. If anything, working with these guys is humbling. As soon as I start thinking that I know my stuff, I get on a little bit bigger show than I'm used to and realize I'm still just starting out. The best thing I've done is jumped at pretty much any opportunity that presented itself to me. As long as experienced people are involved, I'll do whatever it takes to hang out with them for the day.

Either way, when it comes to hiring new guys, we don't call someone up because we know they can really kiss ass...that's the last guy we want hanging out with us for 12 hours a day. Instead, we call up the guy who we know can show up on time, get the job done, and will keep us laughing and smiling the whole way through. How are we ever going to meet that guy if he doesn't start out as a PA? I'm certainly not going to hire some guy that I don't know and have never met before. I'd much rather just call my friends instead, even if I just know them as a PA, no surprises that way.
 
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RyanT said:
You've gotta be joking...Are you really saying that most people at the top just got there without working their way up?
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I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't know of any famous directors who started was as an intern, then worked their way up from PA to director. I'm sure there are examples, but I just don't know of any. Same goes for any famous cinematographers - again I'm sure there are exceptions, so do inform me.

I don't know any of top bank executives who started out as a teller.

I don't know any factory CEO who started out as an assembly line worker.

I don't know any airline president who started out as a flight attendant.

I'm sure there are exceptions, I just don't know of any. Do you?

Most famous artists and entrepreneurs started out as entrepreneurs, their own boss, doing their own thing, and slowly grew their business, contacts, skills, and reputation over time. That IS the normal way of making it to the top - working for themselves, not other people, and definitely not for free.

The director of your last feature, did he start out as an intern? PA? I would say probably not.
 
Also, I would like to state a fact that internship only exists in an environment where supply of labour FAR exceeds the demand for labour, to a point where the going market rate for labour is $0. You won't see people lining up to be interns at McD's, or taxi cab companies, or in any booming industry where the demand of labour is very high. When the cost of labour is $0, the smart thing to do is to hire them as you can make them work and derive income for yourself at no cost. Yet naive interns continue to line up, racing to be the first at the bottom of the food chain.
 
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chromeboy007 said:
Also, I would like to state a fact that internship only exists in an environment where supply of labour FAR exceeds the demand for labour, to a point where the going market rate for labour is $0. You won't see people lining up to be interns at McD's, or taxi cab companies, or in any booming industry where the demand of labour is very high.
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I don't think that's true. Internships exist in industries where mere education isn't enough. Internships allow people to have industry-relevant experience to put on their resumes, in addition to book learning. Internships are a valuable part of the education process, and they don't cost a dime.
 
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chromeboy007 said:
I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't know of any famous directors who started was as an intern, then worked their way up from PA to director. I'm sure there are examples, but I just don't know of any. Same goes for any famous cinematographers - again I'm sure there are exceptions, so do inform me.

I don't know any of top bank executives who started out as a teller.

I don't know any factory CEO who started out as an assembly line worker.

I don't know any airline president who started out as a flight attendant.

I'm sure there are exceptions, I just don't know of any. Do you?

Most famous artists and entrepreneurs started out as entrepreneurs, their own boss, doing their own thing, and slowly grew their business, contacts, skills, and reputation over time. That IS the normal way of making it to the top - working for themselves, not other people, and definitely not for free.

The director of your last feature, did he start out as an intern? PA? I would say probably not.
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So just because you don't know of any means it doesn't exist? Your example of directors is a crock of ****. Trace back a good selection of DGA or DGC members and you'll be sure to see some PA's in that list. Just because the 7 or 8 'famous' directors you've heard of didn't get their start low on the totem pole don't lump the rest of the 90% into that category. Independent directors especially go the route of PA'ing on sets to gain some valuable experience. There is a reason why most directors don't really get 'famous' until they are quite a bit into their careers.
 
Someone who's involved with an upstart internet TV station told me last night that he posted an ad on Craig's List looking for unpaid interns to work a 50 or 60 hour week and got 88 responses. As long as there is a surplus of people willing to answer ads like these, and people who think that they can get effective free labor, this will continue. Even though it violates labor laws.

He also told me that most of his unpaid interns don't last more than a few weeks. It turns out that they're not really as interested as they though of working long hard hours for no pay. Seems you get what you pay for.
 
Loki said:
So just because you don't know of any means it doesn't exist? Your example of directors is a crock of s**t. Trace back a good selection of DGA or DGC members and you'll be sure to see some PA's in that list. Just because the 7 or 8 'famous' directors you've heard of didn't get their start low on the totem pole don't lump the rest of the 90% into that category. Independent directors especially go the route of PA'ing on sets to gain some valuable experience. There is a reason why most directors don't really get 'famous' until they are quite a bit into their careers.
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I haven't listed any examples.... Again as I said before, I'm sure there are exceptions. But do the math:

Out of 1000 PA's today, how many of them will ever direct or even lens a feature length film that's not shoestring budget or self funded?

Out of a 100 DOP's and Directors that have made a name for themselves, how many of them started out as interns and PA's?

You know who will most likely be the next big thing? Go to vimeo front page. Artists making incredible stuff that we have never seen before. Some of them have no doubt done internships / PA work etc, but it will be their OWN work that will get noticed by people higher up in the food chain.
 
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David W. Richardson said:
Okay first, I find this extremely offensive and unnecessary. You could make your point without the vulgarity.



I don't think that's true. Internships exist in industries where mere education isn't enough. Internships allow people to have industry-relevant experience to put on their resumes, in addition to book learning. Internships are a valuable part of the education process, and they don't cost a dime.
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Sorry about the vulgarity... I really wanted to make a point. If I offended anybody, I made my point.

Mere education is never enough in ANY industry other than maybe flipping burgers etc. Yet even cold blooded Wall Street does not do the internship thing, at least not as prolific as the arts. Internships only exists when there are willing volunteers. It's all supply and demand.
 
A person I know of started off working on a farm, then on a construction crew, then started his own crew, then helped finance a nursing home, bought out his partner and built that into a very respectable business. no Wallmart or anything but it's a large company and he started from the very bottom. (nothing against farmers... he just started at the very bottom in terms of position and pay)

The best way to run a business is to have intimate knowledge of all aspects of it, and a good way to do that is to work in all areas the business may cover.

There are many ways to the top, but none as rewarding as working your way there and earning every bit of it.
 
S. Matthews said:
A person I know of started off working on a farm, then on a construction crew, then started his own crew, then helped finance a nursing home, bought out his partner and built that into a very respectable business. no Wallmart or anything but it's a large company and he started from the very bottom. (nothing against farmers... he just started at the very bottom in terms of position and pay)

The best way to run a business is to have intimate knowledge of all aspects of it, and a good way to do that is to work in all areas the business may cover.

There are many ways to the top, but none as rewarding as working your way there and earning every bit of it.
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Inspiring. The key here is he started his own crew.

Stories like this is pretty much the typical storyline of success.
 
David, hmmm.. what I was trying to say initially wasn't so much that one shouldn't work for others to gain experience, but that you shouldn't COUNT ON working for others to be SUCCESSFUL.

We have to realize that most people who start at the bottom, will pretty much end up close to the bottom. For every 1 director there are how many PA's? For every CEO there are how many bank tellers? It's a simple numerical reality.
 
chromeboy007 said:
I'm sure there are exceptions, but I don't know of any famous directors who started was as an intern, then worked their way up from PA to director. I'm sure there are examples, but I just don't know of any. Same goes for any famous cinematographers - again I'm sure there are exceptions, so do inform me.

I don't know any of top bank executives who started out as a teller.

I don't know any factory CEO who started out as an assembly line worker.

I don't know any airline president who started out as a flight attendant.

I'm sure there are exceptions, I just don't know of any. Do you?

Most famous artists and entrepreneurs started out as entrepreneurs, their own boss, doing their own thing, and slowly grew their business, contacts, skills, and reputation over time. That IS the normal way of making it to the top - working for themselves, not other people, and definitely not for free.

The director of your last feature, did he start out as an intern? PA? I would say probably not.
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Your honor, I present Exhibit A:

One of the Film industries [sic] greatest iconic directors/producers is Steven Spielberg. Spielberg started out as a three-day-a-week unpaid intern for Universal. During the 1970s, 1980s and 1990s, three of his films became the highest grossing films for their time: Jaws, E.T. And Jurassic Park. Because of his internship with his drive and determination, Spielberg was signed onto a long term director deal with Universal in 1968. This deal made Spielberg the youngest director ever signed to a long term deal with a major Hollywood studio for that time. Being an intern was probably more important than attending film school for Spielberg.
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from- http://www.hollywoodentertainmentjobs.com/index.cfm/film-tv-internships.html

Exhibit B: Steve Jobs worked an assembly line at Hewlett-Packard.

http://www.businessinsider.com/12-famous-people-who-paid-their-dues-as-interns-2011-6?op=1

Exhibit C: Michael Bay, who interned for George Lucas on Raiders of the Lost Ark.

Exhibit D: David Fincher, who started out as an AC, then moved up to VFX at ILM, later becoming, well... David Fincher.

Need I really say more?
 
I'm going to admit I know nothing about working as a director and making it in that sense. It's not my thing and I won't pretend to know anything about it. Working as a DP and making it in that realm is quite the different story.

First read this post. This is by a great dolly grip, works on True Blood, Dexter...he's very good at what he does and I think explains things perfectly on why just suddenly becoming a DP is an awful awful idea.
http://www.dollygrippery.com/2010/02/they-dont-know-what-we-do.html

I've been recently reading Cinematographer style, a book put together by the ASC and they ask a number of great cinematographers how they started out, here's a short list of people who started "at the bottom". This is only from me flipping through the pages for 5 minutes. I'd probably say a good 65-75 percent started out as either as a PA, then moved onto working somewhere in the camera or G/E departments before working as a DP and being invited into the ASC.

Remi Adefarasin, BSC: Started as an employee at BBC, worked as an AC for 11 years before moving on to shooting. Shot band of brothers, about a boy, match point...
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001899/

Russ Alsobrook, ASC: Started as a PA, then worked as a boom operator, b-camera loader. He said he did anything and everything. He shot Forgetting Sarah Marshall, Superbad, Freaks and Geeks...
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0022540/

Jack Green, ASC: Became an AC in 1965, moved up to operate in 1975, then became a director of photography in 1985.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0005726/

Bill Pope, ASC: One of my favorite cinematographers. Shot the entire Matrix series, Scott Pilgrim, and a number of other awesome films.
http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0691084/

You know who will most likely be the next big thing? Go to vimeo front page. Artists making incredible stuff that we have never seen before. Some of them have no doubt done internships / PA work etc, but it will be their OWN work that will get noticed by people higher up in the food chain.
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I think in the end we agree on things, but I think you're missing the key point here. I actually know just the guy you're talking about in your posts, GoPro just sends him cameras to play with, he has a tremendous following on vimeo, and a lot of his stuff does look pretty good. Then...I work with him on set. Oh boy. He'd do the most god-awful workarounds for simple problems and makes the crew miserable because he's risen to the top way too quickly. He's never seen a real DP work and as a result of which does not act like one, but worse yet, he insists on calling himself a director of photography. If anything it's the Gaffer and AC who are holding this guy up, they're the ones that are making him look good in the end, it has nothing to do with his talent or his skills. Just the people that he's surrounded himself with.

What I do agree with is getting out there and doing your own thing. Sure, I'm working as a gaffer, but at the same time I try to keep an eye out for good films and good people. I always ask PA's what they're interested in doing, and I always like to ask them what project they've got in the works if they want to write/direct. Ultimately it's because of my time spent as a gaffer and my brief stint as an AC that allow me to shoot how I do now. I've seen some great DP's work, and I've also seen some awful DP's work, and it's helping me figure out exactly how I want things to be. That's why people are going to be impressed with my work, because I was taught by the pros.

I hope you can tell how much offense I take from all this. It's just so silly.
 
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Ryan which guy was I talking about in my posts? I never mentioned anyone... it's like everyone is claiming I named people but I never did.

Thanks for giving me some examples that I couldn't find myself folks. But I do have a question. How come none of these people cited by you folks had their PA credits in IMDB? I was relying on IMDB so I couldn't find any.

It's easy to do a reverse look up successful DOP's and Directors now and track their careers back. But how about looking at PA's from say 5 to 10 years ago and see where they are now?

I did that exercise with The Sopranos, the best of the best in TV. I looked up a number of PA's (funny how alot of them are indeed Italian Americans... keeping it in the family... lol) who worked on show back in the late 90's and early 00's. I am impressed to see that a lot of them has gone on to become 2nd AD's, or at least 2nd 2nd AD's. One of them is a 2nd unit Director for the Star Trek movie. Although a lot still hasn't gone anywhere. So I would say that I stand corrected. (Having said that, The Sopranos is not what I would call "the bottom". I don't know what you would have to do to get on a premier TV series...)

Re: Jobs though. Your point is exactly what I was trying to say. If he had stay at HP, he would've been an assembly line supervisor at best. But no he went out and did his own thing...

Good luck to you all.
 
You know, I was wondering the same thing and I'm not exactly sure. IMDB is not an end all source as accurate as it claims to be, especially because it doesn't list any sort of corporate, commercial, or music video production. I really wish it did though as it'd be great to really be able to track people throughout their careers.
 
Paul Hudson said:
I don't hire un-paid interns. When I hire interns I always pay them something, albiet not a lot. I feel by paying them something they feel more a part of the team and are less likely to become a squeaky wheel. Whether this be just complaining or as Searchlight has found something much worse.
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I couldn't agree more with Paul. My partner and I owned and operated two production companies for more than 15 years and had many schools offered us interns. Those we accepted got assigned to a different area for a couple days and generally made the rounds of the crew/team unless they expressed a specific interest in one area. We ALWAYS made sure that there was some funding for them in the way of an honorarium and there was always an invite to the wrap or munchies and beverages after the shoot with the produciton. The social time was as valuable as the professional time and gave them a chance to ask the questions there had not been time for during the production. I have since sold the business but always say: "What goes around comes around " and one day one or some of those kids will be hiring and remember how they were treated.
 
BrianMurphy said:
I couldn't agree more with Paul. My partner and I owned and operated two production companies for more than 15 years and had many schools offered us interns. Those we accepted got assigned to a different area for a couple days and generally made the rounds of the crew/team unless they expressed a specific interest in one area. We ALWAYS made sure that there was some funding for them in the way of an honorarium and there was always an invite to the wrap or munchies and beverages after the shoot with the produciton. The social time was as valuable as the professional time and gave them a chance to ask the questions there had not been time for during the production. I have since sold the business but always say: "What goes around comes around " and one day one or some of those kids will be hiring and remember how they were treated.
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Kudos to you! It's great that you can do that. Of course, everyone feeds and socializes with the interns. That goes without saying.

I've never seen a production that had too many crew people. But I've seen lots that had all the crew they could afford to pay. There's nothing wrong with supplementing with unpaid interns if both parties are happy with the arrangement.
 
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