Inexpensive hi-def woes

re: not being able to instantly download and reuse dv tapes like a p2 card

icicle22 said:
Why would I want to take a tape out and download it and then reuse it on the spot? That's not a benefit...that's a pain in the butt and the only reason anyone is willing to do it is the cost of P2 is so prohibitive. DV tape is very inexpensive and had long record times. Maybe if I could only record 4 minutes on it we'd have a comparison.
Click to expand...

Not to get in a duel with you about this icicle22...It's just the apples to oranges thing. Different workflows. Are you adding man hours spent waiting to capture tape to NLE to your cost estimates? P2 looks to save hours of thumb twiddling time.

I don't want to devalue HDV...a brilliant way to get the most resolution on a limited , universally embraced tape format( But I'm not crazy about editing around those big linked frames!).

Obviously, with the archiving issues on hand here, HDV does have a huge, albeit temporary, advantage. Until a Blu-Ray or HD DVD solution comes out. That's only a few months away. Then that advantage becomes less prominant.

If HDV makes more sense, we're in luck! Three big beautiful new HDV cameras from Canon, JVC or Sony to choose from!

What's the issue here?
 
The discussion wouldn't be so annoying if it hadn't already been covered a thousand times. You can either realistically investigate the P2 workflow, decide if it will work for you or go another route. There is no need to attack it, saying it won't work or it's too expensive in order to justify staying with a tape based solution.

As Bob Biaz already pointed out (and has been said many times before) all a one man band really needs is 2 or 3 4gb cards and a P2 Store Drive ($1800). No extra cords, time to offload on computer, etc. Just clip it to your belt and change cards as needed. The Cineporter and Firestore will work fine for some too. All coming in for under the MSRP of the Canon (no deck, see below). You need more then 60gb, buy a second P2 Store Drive, it's cheap.

For all the talk of how cheap HDV tape recording is, I don't follow that workflow. Are you not buying a deck (can't even get a deck for the Canon 24f)? Are you going to use your camera as a deck? That's a lot of headwear and downtime for your camera; remember to factor that in.

Still HDV has a good market and maybe it is for you. If you are going to criticize the P2 workflow, please educate yourself on it's realities before you do (and then please make sure those criticisms haven't been beaten to death already). If you are looking forward to the XDCAM cameras, that has some great possiblities too. You simply don't need to say "P2 is inferior" to acknowledge that XDCAM is exciting too. Before all is said and done, there will be even more options available.

It is still the start of the revolution and in a few years time we will have some great choices, all with their strengths and weaknesses. There will not be just one solution so please stop trying to paint that picture. P2 is here and now (well sort of :grin: ) and will work for many of us. If it doesn't work for you, "Move along, nothing to see here."

Cheers
 
Barry, when I said it wont make people happy. That excluded me ;) I ordered 3 4gig P2 card + the P2 Store

I dont care much for the FS-100 after learning the P2 workflow, but a cineporter is ratter more interesting (minus the risk of loosing everything if HD failed)
 
wabbit said:
If you are looking forward to the XDCAM cameras, that has some great possiblities too. You simply don't need to say "P2 is inferior" to acknowledge that XDCAM is exciting too. Before all is said and done, there will be even more options available.
Click to expand...

The way I see it P2 interface could allow a mountable XDCAM Drive to the HVX200 camera to allow the 23gig recording ... BUT I guess XDCAM can't write fast ennuf :(
This is where I love the P2. Or should I say a PCMCIA port. It allow you to virtually connect any device you can invent. It is expendable to be nearly limitless (Im sure P2 have a gig limit, fat32 or something). Cineporter saw it posiblity from the start, and will be a hit, no need to stop there. Put PC Memory, or a bunch of CF in Raid 5 or whatever you can think off.

I see on tigerdirect 100$ for 1 2gig SD Card. Make a Raid 5 of 33 SD. That 3300$ for 64gig of storage. That 64minutes of recording. And those can be put in a small form factor (but will need alot of power). Once Cineporter design work with 1 HD... They can just use whatever storage media they wish.

But in the end, the camera is not stuck to a medium, only to a protocol.

Im sure they will make a P2 Ethernet card, that will just stream the content to a P2 Server. And so far (and I hope it goes that way) Panasonic wont block people from inventing those P2 interface and selling them to connect their camera.
 
Tony Torn said:
If HDV makes more sense, we're in luck! Three big beautiful new HDV cameras from Canon, JVC or Sony to choose from!

What's the issue here?
Click to expand...

The issue is that I just wish the darn HVX had an HDV option to passify me until a reasonably priced P2 archival method is introduced....that's all. For me it is HVX all the way. But I am not big right now on trusting my critical files to hard disk based storage.
 
icicle22 said:
I am not big right now on trusting my critical files to hard disk based storage.
Click to expand...
Then don't; I'm certainly not going to. Use DVD-Rs for 1:1 backups of your cards until higher capacity cards (and Blu-Ray) comes out.
 
P2 is not like shooting film at all. That is such a silly silly position, no different than the position that the noise in an HVX looks like film grain. SILLY! I really like the HVX as I have been playing with it, the variable frame rates are great. We have access to an HD1200A deck so will be using that often instead of P2.

Where P2 falls apart is in back up. When you shoot film, you dont erase every reel and leave yourself at the whim of HDDs. Our workflow which on some projects will be tapeless will also include a redundant back-up to a fibre raid. There is the hidden cost and extra time of the P2 workflow.



ash =o)
 
Haakon said:
Then don't; I'm certainly not going to. Use DVD-Rs for 1:1 backups of your cards until higher capacity cards (and Blu-Ray) comes out.
Click to expand...


Consumer DVD-Rs are NOT a great back-up solution... and at 15 minutes to get a solid burn... uhh... you going to spend 15 minutes to back up every 10 minutes of footage? External RAID5 is the way to go... not foolproof but very solid.

One other thing, in MANY MANY post facilities projects are DUMPED off the HDD and rebuilt from tapes later. You would be surprised how many people want their commercial from 3 years ago redone with a new song and logo...



ash =o)
 
ON the XDCAM solution... we'll see, seems solid now but who knows. I want to play with one for a while before I get too giddy. Looks promising.



ash =o)
 
AshG said:
P2 is not like shooting film at all. That is such a silly silly position, no different than the position that the noise in an HVX looks like film grain. SILLY! I really like the HVX as I have been playing with it, the variable frame rates are great. We have access to an HD1200A deck so will be using that often instead of P2.

Where P2 falls apart is in back up. When you shoot film, you dont erase every reel and leave yourself at the whim of HDDs. Our workflow which on some projects will be tapeless will also include a redundant back-up to a fibre raid. There is the hidden cost and extra time of the P2 workflow.



ash =o)
Click to expand...
Not to argue, but I think P2 seems more closely related to film at least from a production standpoint...10 minutes or so on a card depending on what format you're shooting isn't different from film. And with film as it is with tape and P2, you never really know until that final moment....that is know for certain. And backing up, well backing up on film is just as scary as it is on tape as it is on P2. Hell, I don't even know what my distributor did with the negative to my last feature and they wont return my calls....now that's scary. Let's face it after more than a hundred years of filmmaking in all its forms, there are still no guarantees that anything, but copies of a copy will last the test of time. More technologies will come and people will still be worried about the longevity of their products. the only true way to achieve longevity of your project is to do projects that everybody wants to see and use and copy and so on and so forth.

I understand that this is a public forum where we should be able to talk about our questions and concerns, but it gets tiring to hear people come online just to punch holes in something that nobody is really saying doesn't have holes.

OK, I'm now stepping off my soapbox. :)
 
Let's assume you have 8 hours of footage in your system recorded at the maximum data rate of 1Gb = 1 minute.

You can get 500GB of storage for around $350. Please see link below:

http://www.pcmall.com/pcmall/shop/detail~dpno~605774.asp

It is VERY easy to connect a USB Drive to a system and copy your files onto an external hard drive. (Remove the first drive and store it.) Connecting a second hard drive and making a second copy is also easy. Total cost is 2 x $350 = $700 That comes to $1.40 per GB or $84 per hour to store on BOTH drives.

Remember, I am giving you TODAY'S cost. In roughly 13 months the price will be 1/2 of today's price. Wait another 13 months and the price will be 1/4 of today's cost. Just wait only 26 months and you will be paying $21 for an hour of HD footage stored on 2 drives.

I don't have an HVX-200 yet, but I wired my house for a 100Base-T network. When I have critical files on my main computer, it is NOTHING for me to transfer them over the network to a second computer, like my laptop.

Blu-Ray Burners will start selling soon for $999, the price of the blank media is unknown. Don't like the price, just wait a few years and the price WILL drop. This is the way computer technology prices are; it is a fact of life.

Yes, hard drives fail, but it's not that hard to have a second copy on another drive. NOR is the cost unreasonable.


Bob Diaz
 
Can someone post a link to the discussed possible workflows for the HVX200? This is getting ridiculous.

This whole p2 thing is getting annoying and I don't want to even rent any of them. Is firewire capture like a no no or something?
 
Kholi said:
Can someone post a link to the discussed possible workflows for the HVX200? This is getting ridiculous.

This whole p2 thing is getting annoying and I don't want to even rent any of them. Is firewire capture like a no no or something?
Click to expand...

P2 is a device that allow direct access, read and write at high speed.
Size are limited to 4 and 8gig rightnow.

Camera can hold 2 P2 card, and hot swap while recording.

Now P2 allow you to see footage on camera in real time, and delete also bad content. If you know something is worthless, you dont lose your time by saving it. It also allow ultra fast access in a editing software, since removing the card and putting it into a computer and it instant.

Now firewire solution to the computer work, but require a computer, with write speed fast ennuf. So laptop that start swaping and oups, lost frames.... problemes you dont want (It was a great shot... but we lost frame when recording, we have to do it again !!).

Now the FS-100 is not out, but once it out will help, but wont allow the same P2 workflow. Beable to record and stop recording, and delete what was recorded.

Only problem is P2 Size and cost. Depending of what you are doing it might not be the way to go, but other solution is amazing. What great, is it expendable.

Like in another post, a MiniDV camera with HDV or future Sony XDCAM laser disk camera allow 60minutes of recording TOP at HDV quality (25mbits/sec), and if you need something bigger in camera, you can't unless wait for a new camera and new techologies. P2 allow highrate 100mbits video, and size can increase to hours and hours. But even at 4gig card, P2 is interesting to work with.
 
mochouinard said:
P2 is a device that allow direct access, read and write at high speed.
Size are limited to 4 and 8gig rightnow.

Camera can hold 2 P2 card, and hot swap while recording.

Now P2 allow you to see footage on camera in real time, and delete also bad content. If you know something is worthless, you dont lose your time by saving it. It also allow ultra fast access in a editing software, since removing the card and putting it into a computer and it instant.

Now firewire solution to the computer work, but require a computer, with write speed fast ennuf. So laptop that start swaping and oups, lost frames.... problemes you dont want (It was a great shot... but we lost frame when recording, we have to do it again !!).

Now the FS-100 is not out, but once it out will help, but wont allow the same P2 workflow. Beable to record and stop recording, and delete what was recorded.

Only problem is P2 Size and cost. Depending of what you are doing it might not be the way to go, but other solution is amazing. What great, is it expendable.

Like in another post, a MiniDV camera with HDV or future Sony XDCAM laser disk camera allow 60minutes of recording TOP at HDV quality (25mbits/sec), and if you need something bigger in camera, you can't unless wait for a new camera and new techologies. P2 allow highrate 100mbits video, and size can increase to hours and hours. But even at 4gig card, P2 is interesting to work with.
Click to expand...

Okay, so what's supposed to be the write speed that I'm looking for when recording straight to HDD?

I seriously don't want to STOP every 10 minutes to load a P2 card onto my Hard-drive, then move it onto the La Cie; just sounds very redundant.

The only good thing I can imagine about working with the small p2 at the moment is the fact that I have a Laptop that can have the p2 plugged straight into it.
 
Kholi said:
Can someone post a link to the discussed possible workflows for the HVX200? This is getting ridiculous.

This whole p2 thing is getting annoying and I don't want to even rent any of them. Is firewire capture like a no no or something?
Click to expand...


A while back, I outlined several ways to backup your data. Here is the link to the post:


http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=42344


I hope this helps...


Bob Diaz
 
Well DVCPRO HD is 100mbits video + 30mbits or something for audio.
So that is about 20MBytes/sec write speed. A regular HD can do normally 30 to 40MBytes/sec. So it ennuf, BUT you always have RISK of having something using HD then this 40MB/sec drop down quickly. Especially if your HD is fragmented, it can't do 40MB/sec.

I will personally use a P2 store. But whatever work for you. Problem P2 give too much options, people can't choise one...
 
BobDiaz said:
A while back, I outlined several ways to backup your data. Here is the link to the post:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?t=42344
Click to expand...

This archival solution debate is also running at http://www.dvxuser.com/V3/showthread.php?p=409627

I agree to your post on everything, but I wouldn't be as stress to use HD. I have dropped HD and still work, but those were powered down HD (heads are parked). But yes it a risk. Restoration doesn't cost as much as one think, but there is always risk of permanent data lost.

The 4GIG p2 card will be great for me with the P2 store and the DVD backup solution. I am sure I will mostly record 480p widescreen anyway. So it give me what, 16minutes of recording off a 4gig. 16 minutes of interesting content is still alot of content ;)

But when dealing with data, there is always RISK !!! You can't be risk free, and have to live with it. But be inteligent as possible, and watchout for the Murphy's Law, it will catch you up.
 
I am not punching holes in anything, just pointing fingers at those who are saying that P2 is somehow POSITIVE in the way it works like film. Just not so... As far as back-up, sure you can get a cheap HDD. But for a SOLID professional back-up you will need a professional solid redundant RAID, not a cheap home built unit.

My only real problem with P2 is that by the very nature, the format is destructive. You can go back to your film reels, you can go back to your tapes but once you delete the P2, the data only exists on you HDD and back-up. If lost, it cannot be recaptured. I suspect in a couple years these problems will be moot but they are certainly valid right now. There is always risk as noted but P2 is a lot higher risk than tape.




ash =o)
 
Ash, we're saying that it's workable. That it can be used for any type of job that would otherwise have been shot on film. Nobody's glad that the record times are shorter than tape -- that'd be just silly. But the record times are long enough to do the same kind of work that's been done on film for the last 100 years, and they're only going to get longer.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top