Inexpensive hi-def woes

M

meddesigner

Active member
Well at the end of the day it appears none of the inexpensive high-def cameras are really good choices. The HVX is a winner for 4:2:2 and the DVCPRO-HD CODEC plus the P2 format is quite interesting. But the P2 format is what is really starting to kill my interest.

The fact is P2 is expensive and I can afford it but I cannot justify it. There is no good reason for these cards to cost this much. Additionally, it was cited the cards would come down in price and have greater capacities. But at the rate this appears to be happening it looks like it will be several years before we have anything in the realm of good record times and high capacity cards at a reasonable cost. In fact I do not believe it will ever happen. They have hit a technology barrier here and buying into P2 despite all it’s clear advantages may be a bad move.

How many 4GB P2 cards do you need to record 1-hour 1080i?
HDV Tape: 1 tape required at $10-20 dollars
P2: 15 cards required at $645.00 each or $9,675.00

That is just plain silly and does not address the target market the camera is aimed at.

On the other had HDV has only one advantage I can think of. Because it is tape based one will have a running archive incase your editing system crashes and you loose data. With P2 careful planning and consistent backups will be required. With a tape based format it is easy to recapture – just time consuming. Everything else about HDV is appears to be inferior to P2.

Additionally, products like the Cineporter and Firestore could solve some of these issues with the HVX but one should not count on these as neither is shipping and it looks like it may be months to years before one can buy this as well. I remember talking about the HVX more than a year ago and it is still not really available.

Also with this being the very first production run of the cameras what are early adopters really getting themselves into? At lest with the Sony camera they have been doing it awhile and I have seen material that looks very good from this setup. Again HDV is a bummer (especially with regards to audio) but the tape is a safety net.

I understand that the Sony, Canon, and JVC may not have the flexibility of some of the HVX’s features but I am starting to feel that P2 could be a mistake. I also hate to think I am considering and HDV option but after running the number for the past few weeks and considering the workflow limitations I feel I might be better off with a HDV camera or perhaps choosing nothing at all and give it another two years to shake itself out. But at that time 4GB cards will still be $150.00 or so at discount of 75%.

WE must have better storage options or the HVX really cannot succeed in the big picture.

Thoughts?
 
P2 is the greatest thing scince sliced bread, but maybe it's not for you. I mentioned it to a producer who does 4 features a year here, he was salivating at the thought of no tapes, why. Last feature tape cost was over 2500.00 Fed ex costs to the editor on top of that. The mere thought of loading the files on a server and letting the editor download was pure nivaran for him, but to each thier own.
 
Come on. P2 is not the greatest thing at all. Maybe the idea of no tape is great but P2 is not the answer to this. Let us just use your P2 love to have you answer this - How many hours do you shoot for a typical feature? How many P2 Cards will you need to accomplish this? What will they cost? (note: they will not be 50% cheaper in 1 year, keep dreaming). Ok, so you only need enough to get you through one day because you can offload and use them over, so then how many do you need realisticaly for one day? Then when you copy this data over where will you store it for safe keeping? Redundant Raid, how much is that? Then where do you put all of it after you are done with the project? Do you just keep it on the raid and buy another raid for the next project? Burn it to DVD? Copy the data to HD tape? How much will that cost?

Come on people. I love the HVX,(might just buy one when I can get one) and the idea of this tapeless workflow, but don't pretend it's cheaper than tape or that it's perfect. The HVX failed by betting everything on the P2 media. I'm sure inside Panasonic they are not too happy. "We thought P2 cards would have been much cheaper and larger by the time we shipped the camera", Reply: "You're fired".
 
Richard, I'm not sure how many HVX fans will agree about P2 with you.

I understand the cost issue, but it is a new format to us. It won't take that long before price verses memory will decrease.

I'm glad Panasonic is driving this technology.

I can't imagine using tape forver.

Look at the DAT martket as opposed to hard dick based solutions.

The hard disk/ computer based systems are blowing away tape based.

Even the Alesis ADAT has moved to hard disk over the tape.

Instant access... fast fwd, rew, scrub, instantly.
I can't imagine not having it now in my studio.

Steve
 
Steve, In 5 years this might be true, but you are not looking at the big picture. When recording sound on a film what do they use? Portable DAT or Portable Hard Drives? Answer: DAT.

Not to mention that it's much cheaper to offload Audio than HD. You can actually backup all audio to DAT or DVD for a reasonable price. It takes much less space than HD.

Let me add. I do agree with you, I'm glad Panasonic is pushing technology but they should offer both tape and P2 as it's too early to bet it all on P2. You are also right about the ease of computer based editing. There is no argument that we want everything to end up on a hard drive but there is still the problem of management and long term storage of the material.
 
Why are people still complaining about P2? We've none for the last nine months what the challenges, space limitations, and advantages are. You will have to adjust to the workflow. It's like shooting film, this point has been made countless times.

You can embrace the tapeless workflow or you can find another option that fits your style. You have a choice.
 
meddesigner said:
WE must have better storage options or the HVX really cannot succeed in the big picture.
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I'm not part of your "WE". I made it a priority to be able to afford P2 and through tons of research, I've justified it. Every other part of my life is tapeless. Why is my video world still recording to tape?? I'm done with it. If P2 is not for you, buy the XL-H1.
 
Isaac, I'm not complaining at all. I'm just trying to get people to see the larger problem not just get sucked into technology. I've known about P2 for a long while but guess what the prices are just as high as they were 9 months ago - that is not good.

We also need to get away with "it's like shooting film". Do you know how many directors and DP's I know that wish they had longer recording time on film. Why do we want to go back in time?
 
holyzoo, why do you need to turn this into a brand war? I'm going to get a HVX - that is why I'm here and not on the Canon forums.

I'll ask this again since you have justified the cost and figured you can work with no tape. What will you do with the footage after each project?
 
I do not disagree with the fact tapeless is better. I just do not feel P2 is the answer. $645.oo for a 4GB card and 4 minutes is not a good deal. $2,000 fo ran 8GB card is even less of a deal. But this is how Panasonic choose to record high-def data.

I think I want to look at XDCAM HD. It is also tapeless and a larger CCD. It might be a better option for us. I want to go tapeless and will buy nothing before we buy HDV. But unless we have good storage options for the HVX during the recording process then the HVX will not be bought either. I can buy the P2 cards but I feel we will be throwing money away.

But anyone who thinks these cards will come down in price is dreaming. Panasonic does not have to lower the cost of the cards as it appears there are folks that feel $9,000 to record an hour is a great deal. Why lower the cost when your market is captive. We will pay what they say we will pay - period.

$30.00 for and XD-CAM HD disc is more like it. Yes it is intraframe compression but I have looked at some demo material and it looks pretty nice.
 
meddesigner said:
There is no good reason for these cards to cost this much. Additionally, it was cited the cards would come down in price and have greater capacities. But at the rate this appears to be happening it looks like it will be several years before we have anything in the realm of good record times and high capacity cards at a reasonable cost. In fact I do not believe it will ever happen.
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This has been beat to death again and again here and over at dvinfo.net. Panasonic's price on 4GB P2 cards is hardly out of line and rather good considering what is inside of them and that they are the only supplier of a very limited market product and a big name brand supplier too.

But pricing aside (street price of about $625 for a 4GB card), it sounds like the P2 workflow may not work for you. There are other options - Cineporter and Firestore, perhaps these would better suit your workflow? Then again, most workflows can be adapted to P2 pretty easily, you just have to put a little effort into it. For the indie film market and ENG, the two primary areas this camera is targeted at, P2 fits like a glove.

Your calculations are off, it only takes 11 4GB P2s to store an hour, not 15. Not as if it really makes a difference, but that's not how P2 is supposed to work. P2 is an intermediary acquisition/transport medium. It is designed to be swapped out and off-loaded within the workflow. While you could show up to a shoot with a bag full of P2 cards, that's not the intent of the format.

For my needs, 2x4GB P2 cards and having my notebook PC handy will be all that I need to shoot a few hours of HD in just about any location. I don't do long-form, live event recording, so a Cineporter or Firestore don't really interest me right now. I'll probably buy 3 P2 cards just to be safe... The cost of tape alone that I will save in the first year will cover the cost of my P2 cards. But that may not apply to many people either. I already have a comprehensive backup workflow in place that uses archival tape. Dropping the HVX into the workflow only increases my video storage and backup requirements, which is an overall increase of about 25% to all of my storage/backup needs. Over the next 3 years, HVX and tapeless acquisition will save me money. Those who currently shoot DV and keep their original DV tapes as their only means of source backup aren't really going to benefit like that. The HVX200 itself will save money on tape, but they will have to invest into another form of backup for their source material (BluRay, DLT, etc..).

Anyway, give the P2 workflow and its possibilities a good hard think. It will either work for you or it won't. Only you can decide that for yourself. As for P2 card prices and capacities, prices will come down a bit once other vendors start producing them as demand increases. However, you can bet that $400 or so will probably end up being the low price for the entry level P2 card for some time, probably several years. What we will see is that price will increasingly buy more capacity. We will have 16GB and 32GB cards within a year and probably 128GB cards within 3 years. P2 cards are based on SD memory which is continously increasing in capacity and speed. 4GB SD chips were being demoed at CES and production is expected later this year. Those are the chips needed for a 16GB P2 card. Samsung (one of the companies showing off 4GB SD chips) said that pricing would be less than current 2GB chips once they reach capacity. So, in about a year when capacity is up, 16GB P2 should be readily available for less than what 8GB can be pre-ordered for now. ...This tells us that buying 8GB P2 cards is a bad idea and buying more 4GB cards than we absolutely need could be a waste of money... Maybe we should only buy 2 cards and make a habit of renting more when needed?
 
It's not going back in time, it's just that people will need to spend more time in preproduction, and develop a good workflow for offloading to make the process work.

Even when shooting tape on my DVX I don't shoot a lot of footage in a day. It's not untypical to end up with less than twenty minutes of footage in a day. Obviously the "let the camera roll" mentality won't work with the HVX and P2.

The HVX wouldn't exist without P2. In time P2 prices will come down and storage capacity will increase. It's not perfect for many people right now, but there are plenty of other options to choose from.
 
Stevet said:
Yes, but that's mainly because there have not been that many portable HD solutions

That market will change too with portable solutions like the Fostex FR2TC
http://www.musiciansbuy.com/Fostex_FR2TC_Field_Memory_Recorder_wTimecode_FR_2TC.html
Click to expand...

I have one of these for audio, and let me tell you, it IS the best thing since sliced bread. When I get my HVX I'll be able to dump all footage and audio into my powerbook during and at the end of a shoot, then export to a hard drive an I can start editing THAT DAY.

In fact, I am to be editing a feature ON SET in the next few months. Same process. At the lunch break, I'm going to copy and import all the takes and start editing.
 
The HVX failed
Click to expand...

I understand the context in which you were saying this however i hardly think your point is enough to brand this camera a failure.


I agree that P2 costs are ridiculous however it is not the only option. And I thnk third party options like the CP-2 are much closer to realization than the predictions of a year or more.
 
FullRez said:
holyzoo, why do you need to turn this into a brand war?
Click to expand...

I'm not turning it into a brand war. I'm just saying if you can't justify P2, and hence rejecting purchasing the HVX2, there are other options.

FullRez said:
I'm going to get a HVX
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Awesome! Same here. We're at the same party. ;)

FullRez said:
I'll ask this again since you have justified the cost and figured you can work with no tape. What will you do with the footage after each project?
Click to expand...

Everything will be initially archived/stored on hard drives. 250GB SATA drives are down to about $100. I can just mount them in hotswap trays, plugin and archive. I plan to keep the whole project or consolidate media. I almost never go back to raw tapes. I know some people often do. But in the past, at production companies who needed archival for repurposing, we made consolidation stock footage tapes. I'd probably do the same thing regarding what to keep. I have no desire to "keep it all".

Once Blu-Ray and/or HD-DVD proliferates, I'll probably add that to my workflow.
 
How many 4GB P2 cards do you need to record 1-hour 1080i?
HDV Tape: 1 tape required at $10-20 dollars
P2: 15 cards required at $645.00 each or $9,675.00
Click to expand...

You are assuming that one must use P2 as the final holding spot before going into the edit room. There are other ways:

Two 4GB P2 Cards ($650 each) Total = $1,300
One P2 Store Drive ($1,800 each) Total = $1,800
Grand Total for everything = $3,100
Add a third 4GB P2 card and the grand total is $3,750

OR

Two 4GB P2 Cards ($650 each) Total = $1,300
Laptop Computer (around $1,000 or so) = $700 - $1,700
Grand total = $2,000 - $3,000

OR

Two 4GB P2 Cards ($650 each) Total = $1,300
1394 120GB Drive (to download the cards) = $100 (the price varies)
Grand total = $1,400 depending on the price of the drive

SEE:
http://www.macmall.com/macmall/shop/detail~dpno~241751.asp


There is more than one way to deal with the limited amount of memory on today's P2 cards. It's a matter of deciding what is best for your needs.


On the other had HDV has only one advantage I can think of. Because it is tape based one will have a running archive incase your editing system crashes and you loose data. With P2 careful planning and consistent backups will be required. With a tape based format it is easy to recapture – just time consuming. Everything else about HDV is appears to be inferior to P2.

...

Again HDV is a bummer (especially with regards to audio) but the tape is a safety net.
Click to expand...


Tape is NOT 100% bullet proof!!!

Tapes DO fail and I don't mean the little things like dropouts, BUT things like breaks, wrinkles, stretches, and winds around the record/playback drive. Failure may be rare, but it can occur.

In the same way, failure is rare with computer storage. It can happen. It is easier to backup P2 than it is to backup tape. Saying that tape is a safety net is to falsely assume that tape never fails; that's just not true.

Consider this, if I have P2 data, just plug in a removeable hard drive, copy the data to the drive, and store the drive. Now the raw P2 data is safe on another drive. That is exactly what you would have with tape. As for hard drives, the cost stays the same, but the storage capacity doubles about every 13 months.


Going from tape to P2 is a whole new set of rules and there is some give and take here. Yes, you do have to change the way you do things, but it offers several key advantages in exchange.


Bob Diaz
 
I guess I'm just a bit confused on who the target market is for this camera. Indie film makers? The external hard drive recording is probably the best option for more recording and the price will be better than buying a bunch of P2 cards. However, then we lose that portable low key approach to our shooting because we have to lug around all this other stuff, find power for it, etc.

It will just take some adjustment and I'm sure I'll get there but I feel like this camera was targeted for one market but found another. ;)
 
I'm just glad someone's doing it.

If everyone was happy with what we have, there would be no drive for new technology, no matter what aspect.

This thread will be moot several years from now.
 
why are you P2 naysayers BUYING all the P2 cards for working on features. you can RENT them. and yes the 8GB cards are in short supply but you should also be able to rent those once the cameras become more available. renting 5 of those should do just fine provided you have a knowledgable AC to dump your files for you.

and continuing....

meddesigner said:
How many 4GB P2 cards do you need to record 1-hour 1080i?
HDV Tape: 1 tape required at $10-20 dollars
P2: 15 cards required at $645.00 each or $9,675.00

That is just plain silly and does not address the target market the camera is aimed at.
Click to expand...

how do you know what Panasonic figured to be their target market? P2 is already a success with several news stations around the country. P2 has already been used succesfully by a member of this forum to film a HD flower commercial with the HVX200. just because the camera and P2 dont immediately address the needs of those wanting to make a full length indy feature or long record time documentary doesn't mean the camera fails to address its target market. if it really failed to address its target market EVS wouldn't have a waiting list 200+ deep.

and looking forward for those with bigger budgets wanting to make features i would imagine (that imagination being fueld by hints from Panny reps at trade shows) that Panasonic will be realeasing a P2 version of the Varicam with 5 P2 slots like the SPX800 has. Imagine using 5 8GB P2 cards giving you 40 minutes of 1080p footage. thats about what we shot each day on any of the features i've done AC work on using the Varicam with tape. but i'm sure that camera is not really in the target market for many on this forum.
 
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