Inception

One thing that bothered me is if you think you might be in a dream, couldn't Cobb's subconscious fool himself into thinking the top worked or didn't work since he didn't seem to have total control of his dreams or his influence on other people's dreams anyways? He would know that Mal knew how the top worked. Seems like he set himself up to never know what is real and not real.
 
grimepoch said:
One thing that bothered me is if you think you might be in a dream, couldn't Cobb's subconscious fool himself into thinking the top worked or didn't work since he didn't seem to have total control of his dreams or his influence on other people's dreams anyways? He would know that Mal knew how the top worked. Seems like he set himself up to never know what is real and not real.
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That's the major conflict with Cobb's character, and, most of the story. It's supposed to be exactly like that, where the dreamer is incapable of distinguishing reality from a dream.

Mol's creation of the Totem, such a simple yet effective bind to the real world, is the only way that these people know how.

And even then, as you've noticed, you can fool yourself if you've spent way too much time in a dream. Your subconscious will play along, eventually, and then you're in real trouble.
 
Okidoki, thanks... but I still don't understand the technicalities of this specific totem dude...

If the top keeps spinning, it's a dream. If it drops, real life. We all can agree with that.

What confuses me is if Cobb was the victim/mark/target/dreamer of someone else's dream(Yuseff/Arthur/Eames/Mal), the top would just drop anyway right? Not that it matters when he *chooses* to go in, he would know he's in a dream.

But say he got knocked out or went in unknowingly like in Fischer's situation. The flaw is even if the top fell you would never know for sure it was real, because those are qualities that the architect has built and not you. Unless the dreamer's subconcious makes a projection totem that overrides the dream builder's logic and it will always spin who's ever dream he is in??? Aaah confusing...



On another topic, I find it really interesting that the exchange between Cobb and Saito's conversation is different at the start and end. Evil red herring!?

And finally, what was the point in bringing Saito with them down to Levels 2 and 3? Lock him in the abandoned warehouse in Levels 1 and wait til everyone else is done for God's sake, don't thrash him around in a free falling van- wherein he's certainly die and plop to limbo...
 
Ah well, Cobb knew it was fatal anyway hence how he knew to go to Limbo before seeing Saito actually die. If all else, it was worth having a cool japanese guy lend an extra hand shooting projections...
 
Lammy said:
Okidoki, thanks... but I still don't understand the technicalities of this specific totem dude...

If the top keeps spinning, it's a dream. If it drops, real life. We all can agree with that.

What confuses me is if Cobb was the victim/mark/target/dreamer of someone else's dream(Yuseff/Arthur/Eames/Mal), the top would just drop anyway right? Not that it matters when he *chooses* to go in, he would know he's in a dream.

But say he got knocked out or went in unknowingly like in Fischer's situation. The flaw is even if the top fell you would never know for sure it was real, because those are qualities that the architect has built and not you. Unless the dreamer's subconcious makes a projection totem that overrides the dream builder's logic and it will always spin who's ever dream he is in??? Aaah confusing...



On another topic, I find it really interesting that the exchange between Cobb and Saito's conversation is different at the start and end. Evil red herring!?

And finally, what was the point in bringing Saito with them down to Levels 2 and 3? Lock him in the abandoned warehouse in Levels 1 and wait til everyone else is done for God's sake, don't thrash him around in a free falling van- wherein he's certainly die and plop to limbo...
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Yeah, I agree with this confusion as well. The question I have is if you are the person being invaded, can you control what you create as well if you know that it is your dream? Or does your subconscious control it.

To take it a step further, when both Cobb and Mal are living in their world I believe Cobb said they both created it. I took that to imply the dreamer everyone has connected to can control the dreams as well. Then I guess Cobb could always try and control his dreams to try and make the top spin forever to know if he was in his or someone elses dream. However, given his inability to control his affects on dreams, it would seem this is very dangerous for him.

Pertaining to Saito, I think they tried to explain it at one point (why they brought him down). If they left him at a particular level, and he died, because of the type of sedative they were using, he would get trapped in Limbo at that point. Instead, they wanted to bring him down till they initiated the kick simultaneously to bring them completely out. It's been a week since I've seen it so I don't remember all the dialog, or if it makes sense (or if I got it exactly right) but they do try and explain why they are doing it.
 
Lammy said:
Okidoki, thanks... but I still don't understand the technicalities of this specific totem dude...

If the top keeps spinning, it's a dream. If it drops, real life. We all can agree with that.

What confuses me is if Cobb was the victim/mark/target/dreamer of someone else's dream(Yuseff/Arthur/Eames/Mal), the top would just drop anyway right? Not that it matters when he *chooses* to go in, he would know he's in a dream.
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No, the top might not fall. It depends on the dreamer, to be honest. It is at the discrepancy of that specific world at that time. But, with the information we have been presented, the Totem is specifically a fail safe for the owner to differentiate between the waking and the dreaming worlds.

It definitely matters about choice, though. Extraction is a choice made by individual(s) to move into the mind of another, through dreams, to extract information. So, why would you need a totem if you haven't been drugged and you're willingly going into someone else's dream?

That's what I mean.

I'll further examine the use and validity of the Totem tonight. Apparently, people want to go watch. I plan on joining.

On another topic, I find it really interesting that the exchange between Cobb and Saito's conversation is different at the start and end. Evil red herring!?/quote]

It only sounded as though it were edited differently for pacing. But, the same dialog. I may be wrong.

And finally, what was the point in bringing Saito with them down to Levels 2 and 3? Lock him in the abandoned warehouse in Levels 1 and wait til everyone else is done for God's sake, don't thrash him around in a free falling van- wherein he's certainly die and plop to limbo...
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The point in bringing Saito down was the looming/impending danger of Saito slipping into Limbo. In order to stop him from doing so, to increase their chances of preventing it from happening, and to subdue the suffering that Saito experienced from a wound bleeding out they needed to take him to the second and third levels so that the effects of the gun shot on the first level would slow to a crawl.

Otherwise, if he died on the first level of the dream he would've immediately been lost to Limbo.
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grimepoch said:
Yeah, I agree with this confusion as well. The question I have is if you are the person being invaded, can you control what you create as well if you know that it is your dream? Or does your subconscious control it.
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Yes, to an extent. That's why you bring the person you want to perform extraction into another Dreamer's dream, not his or her own. Note: the first example of extraction is not in the dream of Saito's, but Arthur's and the first Architect.

Similar to that, when Fisher is put under, the first level is Yuseff's, the second Arhtur's, the third Eames'.


To take it a step further, when both Cobb and Mal are living in their world I believe Cobb said they both created it. I took that to imply the dreamer everyone has connected to can control the dreams as well. Then I guess Cobb could always try and control his dreams to try and make the top spin forever to know if he was in his or someone elses dream. However, given his inability to control his affects on dreams, it would seem this is very dangerous for him.
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In Limbo they created, together, a world of their own. Limbo is no one's dream, it's the vast infinite of subconsciousness that exists as a pool of data between each person connected. But, specifically, no one's dream. What Limbo does feature, however, are remains of information of anyone who's been there.

Not anyone connected can control the dream, specifically. The dreamer controls the specifics of the dreams, the players interact within them.
 
Kholi said:
It only sounded as though it were edited differently for pacing. But, the same dialog. I may be wrong.
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I remember Saito says all the dialogue in the film's opening. In the ending version Cobb finishes Saito's dialogue, like he's heard it before.

Opening
Saito: This *takes out the spinning top totem* belonged to a man from a half-remembered dream.

Ending
Saito: This...
Cobb: belonged to a man from a half-remembered dream.

It was something along that lines. Which is quite amusing and there to mess with us.
 
I believe that was for pacing !
Cobb was about to finish his sentence aswell ... but I believe they cut away to the dinner scene with Saito and Arthur.
 
I just want to say one thing. Those lanterns above the desk and the reflections were just awesome in my opinion. I loved the look of that room.
 
One thing I just thought of. The entire thing couldn't possibly be a dream. If you die in a dream, you either wake up or go into limbo (unless I'm missing something and you can actually wake up in a lesser dream level, but there's no reason to believe that is the case).

In the beginning, the architect is shot and dies. After the rest wake up, he is there, being dragged off by saito's men. since he's alive and well at thi point, this is reality or this is limbo. I'm going with reality.
 
dust'n the callipygous said:
One thing I just thought of. The entire thing couldn't possibly be a dream. If you die in a dream, you either wake up or go into limbo (unless I'm missing something and you can actually wake up in a lesser dream level, but there's no reason to believe that is the case).

In the beginning, the architect is shot and dies. After the rest wake up, he is there, being dragged off by saito's men. since he's alive and well at thi point, this is reality or this is limbo. I'm going with reality.
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When Arthur was shot at the beginning, he woke up in the higher dream level (closer to reality) in Saito's apartment. He didn't wake up on the train.
 
I enjoyed it, thought it was beautifully put together and well paced. But I went next door to the bar and couldn't recall the name of my favourite Scotch.

Yep DiCaprio is getting better as he ages, his early voice sound was too light for a heavy. The timbre of the voice is so important, vis Bogarts bottom end.

Sorry if this has been posted but the track was intriguing, the bottom end again .. listen to the video ..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/musicblog/2010/jul/29/inception-slow-music

Cheers.
 
I'm going to check it out again on the IMAX in London this Wednesday. I waanna feeeel that world in the best picture quality dammit!
 
OK. The only problem I have with Inception is the massive leap of faith you have to give in Saito's character motivation.

After seeing Cobb fail to properly extract information from himself, after noticing Mal (ie Cobb's) self -sabotage, failing his audition, and Cobb's awful choice of architect-

Saito still thinks its a good idea for Cobb to do a job for him. A very big important inception job. It's not like Cobb's the only person that can do it either, it's implied there are other dream thieves out there sucha s Miles, characters like Eames is aware of inception although Arthur is dubious, and the very use of its terminology exists.

It's like if I was working on a film, saw a DOP under-expose everything by 5 stops, not light at all, and then drop the camera. And then I decided "Yup, okay you've definately got the job."
 
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