In-Camera Audio demonstration and rant

The sound was good enough for me to tell you were using the stock Lav that came with the Sennheiser. Thanks for this post and video.
 
kgimedia said:
The sound was good enough for me to tell you were using the stock Lav that came with the Sennheiser. Thanks for this post and video.
Click to expand...

LOL, yes I was. And its surprisingly expensive to replace as well. I'd replace it with something better if it were in the same price ballpark.
 
Thanks for that video. I have a T2i and the Sennheiser G2 as well. I haven't been able to tweak the settings right to get such clean audio. What is your AF Out level on the Sennheiser? And what do you have the analog and digital gain settings at in Magic Lantern?
 
rszebras said:
Thanks for that video. I have a T2i and the Sennheiser G2 as well. I haven't been able to tweak the settings right to get such clean audio. What is your AF Out level on the Sennheiser? And what do you have the analog and digital gain settings at in Magic Lantern?
Click to expand...

My AF out is about +6. As per another vimeo test I saw once, I set the analog gain to +10, and all digital gains to zero.
On the transmitter, I had the sensitivity set to -20db from back when I used the mic for my DVX with a XLR input, and these settings gave decent results.

However, it occurred to me that I could probably get cleaner sound if I rely less on the camera's preamp, so I turned the analog gain to zero and experimented with the AF and sensitivity on my mic system.

Here what I concluded with that was used in this video:
AF Out (on receiver): 6
Sensitivity (on transmitter): -10db
Camera gains (all digital and analog gain controls in ML menu): 0
And of course, AGC OFF.

The problem with this setup is that it seems to border around the high end of acceptable amplification, and things like a cough or loud wind, etc, will result in over-peaked spike of audio, which is not pleasant to listen to. For a constant volume speaking voice, this is fine. But the first settings I had (-20 sensitivity, +10 on camera) seemed to offer more padding for noise without going over the top, however with lower quality in my opinion (some hiss when audio is normalized).

The trick is to get it as high as possible going into the camera without overdoing it, in order to remove it as much as possible from the noise floor, while not spiking over the acceptable peak, and use the camera's amps as little as possible.
 
Thanks for the feedback. Looks like the secret is to crank up the AF Out on the Sennheiser. I usually had it fairly low running into my HDV camera. But that had better preamps. I currently have it set at -6, which means the analog gain in ML is hotter than your setup. I'll give it a shot at increasing the AF Out to +6 and lowering the in camera gain. I was hesitant to crank up the AF Out, as amps get noisy when cranked. But the Sennheiser amp is probably better than the one in my T2i. Thanks again.
 
In general, I've noticed that XLR mics come in colder than 1/8 jacks, which struck me as odd because I would assume they were the same.
When using adapters to go both ways, a wired 1/8 (3.5mm) mic jack came up louder than my XLR ones in the same input, even the dynamic un-powered ones (such as, the stock mic from the sennheiser versus an Azden SGM 2x, even with the little battery operated pre-amp on the Azden shotgun on high).

I suppose it assumed that whatever the XLR jack is going into has enough dynamic range to raise the volume if needed without hiss, and have room for really loud noises versus soft if desired. This is just my assumption- one of these days I'd love to pick the brain of some audio techs and get real answers.
 
Thanks for the great video, very helpful.

I am not familiar with the g2, but I presume it has a line level output which you feed to the 550d. If so, do you use a -25db pad cable? I am trying to get the best results from my Zoom H2 -> 550d / ML, but I'm wondering if a pad cable will improve things.
 
jamesd256 said:
Thanks for the great video, very helpful.

I am not familiar with the g2, but I presume it has a line level output which you feed to the 550d. If so, do you use a -25db pad cable? I am trying to get the best results from my Zoom H2 -> 550d / ML, but I'm wondering if a pad cable will improve things.
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The G2 is just a wireless lav microphone system. What I'm demonstrating here is running a mic directly into the camera, no recorder in the middle. The Zoom output is for headphones, right? That's totally different and comes in already amplified for the purpose. A pad cable might be necessary in order to avoid overblowing the audio.

In my case, the lav receiver has some gain control in order to adjust for mic placement, etc, and tweaking that seems to get the best in-camera audio. I have no experience trying to use a headphone line out into the camera for recording. Since the line out isn't meant to be used as a microphone, it might a degree more complicated, but I imagine a pad cable would be a step in the right direction?
 
dishe said:
The G2 is just a wireless lav microphone system. What I'm demonstrating here is running a mic directly into the camera, no recorder in the middle. The Zoom output is for headphones, right? That's totally different and comes in already amplified for the purpose. A pad cable might be necessary in order to avoid overblowing the audio.

In my case, the lav receiver has some gain control in order to adjust for mic placement, etc, and tweaking that seems to get the best in-camera audio. I have no experience trying to use a headphone line out into the camera for recording. Since the line out isn't meant to be used as a microphone, it might a degree more complicated, but I imagine a pad cable would be a step in the right direction?
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Thanks. I assumed the g2 had a line out because there is gain control which I would normally expect from a pre-amp, so I go that wrong. The zoom in this case is just acting as a mic, not a recorder, but since you mention it, what I assumed was line out is in fact a line/phones output, so it might well be amped to power levels above line. Maybe a standard line->mic level pad won't do it. Damn, need to brush up on my ohm's law.
 
jamesd256 said:
Thanks. I assumed the g2 had a line out because there is gain control which I would normally expect from a pre-amp, so I go that wrong. The zoom in this case is just acting as a mic, not a recorder, but since you mention it, what I assumed was line out is in fact a line/phones output, so it might well be amped to power levels above line. Maybe a standard line->mic level pad won't do it. Damn, need to brush up on my ohm's law.
Click to expand...

Maybe the Fiio E5 mini pre-amp would be a better option than the H4n... They're super cheap, someone mentioned it in my audio thread here:
http://www.dvxuser.com/V6/showthread.php?240822-The-Canon-DSLR-Audio-thread
 
Mordy,

Any update or additional insight to your audio settings? I noticed this reply was from March 2011 and I got to wondering if you settled on any "best" settings. I just made the switch to Magic Lantern and love it, but I am now at a bit of a loss as to where to set things for audio. Using a Sennheiser G3 wireless and Rode Video Mic Pro.

Previously (before Magic Lantern) on my 60d I turned AGC off with manual the in-camera amp settings a few clicks from the bottom and upped the gain on the VMP or wireless depending on the situation.

Any additional information would be great.

Regards,
Aric Spence
DSLR Solutions
http://www.dslrsolutions.net/



M. Gilden said:
My AF out is about +6. As per another vimeo test I saw once, I set the analog gain to +10, and all digital gains to zero.
On the transmitter, I had the sensitivity set to -20db from back when I used the mic for my DVX with a XLR input, and these settings gave decent results.

However, it occurred to me that I could probably get cleaner sound if I rely less on the camera's preamp, so I turned the analog gain to zero and experimented with the AF and sensitivity on my mic system.

Here what I concluded with that was used in this video:
AF Out (on receiver): 6
Sensitivity (on transmitter): -10db
Camera gains (all digital and analog gain controls in ML menu): 0
And of course, AGC OFF.

The problem with this setup is that it seems to border around the high end of acceptable amplification, and things like a cough or loud wind, etc, will result in over-peaked spike of audio, which is not pleasant to listen to. For a constant volume speaking voice, this is fine. But the first settings I had (-20 sensitivity, +10 on camera) seemed to offer more padding for noise without going over the top, however with lower quality in my opinion (some hiss when audio is normalized).

The trick is to get it as high as possible going into the camera without overdoing it, in order to remove it as much as possible from the noise floor, while not spiking over the acceptable peak, and use the camera's amps as little as possible.
Click to expand...
 
SDesign said:
Mordy,

Any update or additional insight to your audio settings? I noticed this reply was from March 2011 and I got to wondering if you settled on any "best" settings. I just made the switch to Magic Lantern and love it, but I am now at a bit of a loss as to where to set things for audio. Using a Sennheiser G3 wireless and Rode Video Mic Pro.

Previously (before Magic Lantern) on my 60d I turned AGC off with manual the in-camera amp settings a few clicks from the bottom and upped the gain on the VMP or wireless depending on the situation.

Any additional information would be great.

Regards,
Aric Spence
DSLR Solutions
http://www.dslrsolutions.net/
Click to expand...

Sure- set all of the camera gains to 0 (analog and digital) using Magic Lantern.
Then set the receiver's AF OUT value high enough to keep your audio off the sound floor, but far enough away from the top to avoid clipping. This is where it gets tricky, as the values will likely change between people and situations. As I said earlier, I think I used a gain of +6 on the Sennheiser reciever for this test, but YMMV depending on the person and situation being recorded.
There is no magic setting that will work work for all, sadly. Its a delicate balance between removing audio from the floor (the low end, where noise comes from) and the peaks (the top, where clipping and distortion begin).
I recently had to mic a gemologist who was outside digging up minerals and speaking very loudly in between gasps of breath (chiseling rocks open is hard work!). The levels were very different between that and shooting him in his studio afterwards. So you'll have to experiment with speaking volumes during each setup, and adjusting the Sennheiser's output levels to keep it within a safe range without going too low.

I usually ask the subject to count to ten after wiring him or her up, and adjust accordingly while referring to the volume in my headphones as well as the on-screen meters.
 
vision_filmz said:
Only problem being is that your wireless Lav system which is capturing the audio is VERY expensive.......

http://www.amazon.com/Sennheiser-EW-100-ENG-G2-Transmitter/dp/B0007IOYF2
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Well, to be fair, mine is at least $200 less than that. The one you linked to includes some extra stuff, like a transmitter for an XLR mic (AKA "butt plug").
Average price for just the transmitter and receiver, with the lav included etc, is about $500. Which is normal for a device like this.
I honestly already owned one of these from my bigger cameras, been using it for years. A good wireless lav is a staple for anyone doing interviews and/or demonstration videos, I wouldn't be surprised if most folks here already had one (or one like it).
 
M. Gilden said:
Well, to be fair, mine is at least $200 less than that. The one you linked to includes some extra stuff, like a transmitter for an XLR mic (AKA "butt plug").
Average price for just the transmitter and receiver, with the lav included etc, is about $500. Which is normal for a device like this.
I honestly already owned one of these from my bigger cameras, been using it for years. A good wireless lav is a staple for anyone doing interviews and/or demonstration videos, I wouldn't be surprised if most folks here already had one (or one like it).
Click to expand...

So are there better ones around the same price? I bought a cheap wired lac system which sounds pretty bad honestly, but I know it's a combination of things. You need a good mic + recorder. I bought a cheap field recorder (tascam dr07) and it seems to work pretty good. Just need a better lav, but at $500 it is still very expensive for something I normally wouldn't use....... Any suggestions?
 
vision_filmz said:
So are there better ones around the same price? I bought a cheap wired lac system which sounds pretty bad honestly, but I know it's a combination of things. You need a good mic + recorder. I bought a cheap field recorder (tascam dr07) and it seems to work pretty good. Just need a better lav, but at $500 it is still very expensive for something I normally wouldn't use....... Any suggestions?
Click to expand...

If you are using the Tascam to record, and don't mind running a wire, you don't need the sennheiser. This is a pro wireless lav system (not a recorder). If you don't need the wireless part, just ask the guys in the audio section of the forum for recommendations in wired lavs. You can probably pick one up for $100 or less. I think I've heard good things about a particular audio-technica variety.

If you plan to do any demonstration videos, full body shots, or anything that requires freedom of movement, the Sennheiser is pretty standard. I went to film a local private school, and instantly recognized that the lecture hall speakers were all using the same wireless system. I've bumped into others in the field with the same one. It seems pretty universally accepted as the go-to wireless pro system (much like the DVX100 had plenty of competitors back in the day, but was still considered the standard-by-which-all-others-are-judged).
My point in this thread is that if you already have such a system, it is relatively easy to record audio in-camera that is perfectly usable, without recording externally and syncing in post. For more on audio options, I recommend the audio section of dvxuser.
 
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